EP.017: Benedict Allen

bENEDICT aLLEN (EXPLORER & WRITER)

On today’s Podcast, we have Benedict Allen. An English writer, explorer, and filmmaker known for his technique of immersion among indigenous peoples from whom he acquires survival skills. We talk about getting lost in the Amazon and having to resort to eating his own dog in order to survive. He talks about the most brutal initiation known on the planet amongst a tribe in Papa New Guinea.

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Transcript of our Conversation

Benedict Allen

[00:00:00] Benedict Allen: Hello, and welcome back to the modern adventure podcast coming up. He came after me with knives and I jumped into my canoe canoe, eventually capsized, and I was left on the riverbank having to walk out at the forest and eventually I got two sorts of malaria, almost starved death. I didn’t want it to mention it or not, but I had to eat my dog to survive.

And it wasn’t. This is a long, long time ago. And I felt this is the only way I’ll ever see my mum and dad to get my eating this dog. On today’s show. We have an English writer and Explorer known for his immersive expeditions into [00:01:00] indigenous tribes. And also he was the pioneer of the handheld camera for TV also named today as blogging. In 2017, he made international headlines around the world going missing in Papua New Guinea, but it was eventually rescued and found on today’s podcast.

We talk about that expedition and what went wrong. I am delighted to introduce Benedict Talon to the show. Hello, Benedict. Great. Benadette great to have you on the show and thank you so much for coming on. The list of adventures that you’ve done over the past 30, 40 years is truly remarkable. I suppose the best place probably to start is with how this sort of love of exploring sort of came about from such a young age.

I think it’s really due to my dad. I was very curious about the world. Perhaps [00:02:00] like you, I used to read all sorts of accounts by, I don’t know, you can get some Shackleton and Scott and Stanley and Burton and speak and living stern, captain cook. I loved all these tales, but what really made it real to me was my dad.

My dad was a test pilot and he was one of those people developing the Vulcan bomber. And other aircraft as well, but seeing this Vulcan bomber in particular fly over the back garden, this is huge aircraft with massive Delta wings. It’s very sort of charismatic aircraft. And of course this was in the sixties, it was carrying the British nuclear deterrent and incredibly exciting that my dad would be flying his plane.

And he used to tip the wings of this plane as he flew over. And I think that’s what made it real because. I wasn’t really a natural sort of Explorer. It wasn’t particularly. I wasn’t a great sportsman. I wasn’t an evening much of an [00:03:00] outdoor enthusiasts. Really. I just had this idea that I’d go off and, and see these bases that Scott of the Antarctic and so on had seen, but he’s all other dreamy.

So I had this idea of somehow going off to far off places, but having a dad who was a pioneer and seeing him do this for real, it made me think, wow, even I could do it. And I think it was that it. The sense that it was possible for even someone like me. We didn’t have all that much money. I know it sound quite posh, but we didn’t really, and my dump just had a pilot’s wages and it, anyway, it seems possible for me too.

And so it was quite vague blogger sort of whimsical sort of character. And my dad was too. I don’t have no. How he was okay. In the cockpit of a plane carrying that might carry nuclear weapons. I dunno, but people thought, well, I’m a bit of a dreamer, you know, but my dad was as well. So [00:04:00] somehow I thought I could do it because my dad could do it.

I think the answer was that when in action as it were, I am very focused, but normally I’m just dreaming of getting out of there again. Amazing. And so with that, you sort of had the confidence to explore the sort of remote reas regions. Where was the sort of first one that sort of triggered this sort of love of exploring in these remote places?

It, it, it was South America. I. Once to be like I would just be like sorta rally really? It’s a bit embarrassing really, because I was such a dream. I mean, I just thought it’d be amazing to, to go to the Orinoco where he got lost sort of Raleigh. And I thought this is amazing. You know, he had these dreams of finding Eldorado and I was really that naive.

I thought maybe I could. [00:05:00] El Dorado and it was that simple. And of course, as it got nearer, the point when I was going to launch out reality began to Dawn on me, but I don’t think anyone around me. Believed I would do anything of any consequence. They just thought, Oh, well, he’d go off. And then you’ll come back after a few weeks.

And it’ll all have been quite a good adventure, like sort of gap here. But it turned into something much, much bigger. And the reason was I be really. They quickly realized I was very vulnerable out there. I had no background training. I had no experience. Really. I’ve been on a few scientific expeditions, but this was my goal.

It was my chance to do something big. I felt, and I realized the only way I was going to achieve my journey, which became, it evolved really into trying to cross the land of Eldorado was from the Orinoco mouth to the Amazon mouth. The only reasons I, or any way I could do that would be to turn to the locals.

I didn’t have any [00:06:00] sponsorship, but I didn’t have any experience, but I knew that the local people didn’t see these places, which meant. Mangrove swamps or tropical rainforest as a threat. They saw it. These places simply as their home. And if I could learn to live with the locals, then I’d be okay. They could look off to me perhaps.

And the other thing is they didn’t have any money. I didn’t have any money either. I thought, Ooh, maybe if I can make this work, it could be a way of progressing my career because no one’s going to want to sponsor me. And so this is, this is the way to do it become like the locals. So credibly naive and yet it worked.

Just I, I was basically helped by a whole lot of villagers of various sorts, indigenous people who didn’t really want me to die on their hands, I think is what it was. And I got away with it crossed an extraordinary, a bit of Northeast Amazonia. Which no one else seems to have ever crossed [00:07:00] before it was new record of it.

And why would anyone? Frankly, but anyway, I managed to pull off this journey, which was very hard except that 65 miles before the end to go miners set upon me. I was chased in the night by two men with knives. I still don’t know why fully, but I assume they thought I’d started in that gold or they just didn’t want me reporting on them being there.

Maybe they were. Hi, keeping their heads down and robbed someone. I don’t know. Anyway, they came after me with knives and I jumped into my canoe canoe, eventually capsized and I was left on the riverbank having to walk out at the forest and eventually I got two sorts of malaria almost after death.

I didn’t want it to mention this or not, but I had to eat my dog to survive. And it wasn’t it, you know, this is a long, long time ago and I felt this is the only way I’ll ever see my mum and dad again by eating [00:08:00] this dog. And it was, it was, it was, it was a terrible ordeal, of course. But I.

I did survive 20, 22 when I started at switch and I was now 23, I staggered out of the forest with these well, with bad case of starvation and I’m there. So that was the beginning and it was quite a beginning, but if you’re gonna make mistakes, it is good to do them early on in your career. Because I realized now, I had to properly seriously understand this rainforest that it almost killed me.

The probably should have killed me because I was so vulnerable. Was there an experience and I, this initial thoughts, this naive idea of just starting from the locals, it became a. A sort of philosophy really that go to the local people because they are the experts. These [00:09:00] people are the people to turn to more than anyone.

They didn’t think it has a survival. They think of just living in these spaces because the rainforest gets into their food medicine shelter. And I now went to new Guinea. And I underwent a initiation ceremony to make me a man as strong as a crocodile. That’s that was a local phrase. For what young men had to go through and it was, it was horrendous.

I was beaten every day for six weeks with the local boys. I don’t think there’s that ceremony as brutal. On the planet. I mean, it was really, really bad. We were all given initiation, so skins or cut repeatedly and bamboo blades up and down a chest and back. So we had the marks of a crocodile, the sort of insignia really of the Yarra, the people I was living with finally that was done, but it was just sort of preparation.

And I now knew myself Of course, I [00:10:00] knew that culture a little bit more, but I also knew myself. I knew my strengths and weaknesses and that’s of course, what was at the heart of the ceremony. You learnt what it took to cope in a difficult environment. And that was a next stage, really in my career, I began knowing that I should always turn to the local people build on that experience.

But I now knew myself as well. And those two things, the philosophy and the sort of self knowledge would be much better for future journeys. How long were you in Papua New Guinea for, with this tribe? I was, I, Oh, I suppose. And it’s it’s so long ago now. It’s been 1984 spurs and I was with them probably at first time, only three months, four months.

I had been on the Island though, already for three months before I went with to them. So it was fairly. [00:11:00] Tuned in, but still can be naive. No, still only a 24 year old. Who’s just doing his best. I was rather worthy in a way as well. I was thinking an end to imperialism. We don’t want explorers anymore. Who planting flags and asserting themselves.

It should be all about. Listening and learning. So it’s quite sort of Pyre. So my little philosophy and art became my big thing that we have to start thinking again. And I had read environmental science and ecology and so on at university. So it sort of all seemed to come together that turn it’s time now to listen to the local people.

And yeah, so I did my best to do that, but I think it wasn’t essential thought really that actually being vulnerable isn’t necessarily a bad thing. We think we’ve got to go in as explorers, as adventurous as people who are strong. And this is always. The way on the tele, you [00:12:00] see explorers as triumphant and victorious but actually being more childlike or being more open, certainly to whatever’s out there can also be incredibly valuable and perhaps more valuable now than ever, because we realize what we’ve done to our planet and how much we got to learn.

And that spirit of humidity is actually essential. I think. Yeah, I think you were quoted as saying, if you go somewhere with a map, you will only come back with a more detailed version of that map. Yes. I worry about that phrase because I, I snaps myself and lots of defended on maps. But I think what I was trying to say was that you’ve gotta be registered discard knowledge that you come.

With. Yeah, and it’s a tricky, [00:13:00] it’s a, it’s a battle. It goes on in my head on every expedition. I come in there arrogantly in a way with my own agenda that I want to try and achieve something. I want to try and cross a certain place across the whole of dams and basin later on 10 years after my first Amazon expedition.

So you come in with your outsider’s agenda, inevitably. But you’ve also got to listen and learn, and it’s that tussle between the two. And I find myself always wondering how much I can discard and how much I can accept of a new place. I think that it’s necessary in a way to have that dialogue all the way through a journey.

Yeah, I think that was our first guest we had on the show who Charlie Walker under his favorite quote, that was his. Do you know what? I met him in a pub or we met, we went together for a nice little drink and yeah. Does he still own me a drink? I [00:14:00] think I owe him actually, because he was very generous.

But he equated that at me and I thought, Oh dear, that was a bit arrogant. Because you know, who am I to, of come up with these dictums? But I, yes, I think it’s, it’s just great to, to go without open spirit and that sort of knowledge that actually, if you’re like Indiana Jones, if you’re like, Hm, Stanley, if you’re like one of these people who’s going in there with your great quest.

Then yeah, you might easily succeed, but you’ll only succeed in our terms, which is the outsider’s terms. You won’t be an insider and you won’t be seeing these environments as anywhere other than something you’re backing against of, or, or trying to overcome in some way. Yeah. And so 30 years after your encounter with this [00:15:00] remote tribe in Papua New Guinea, you then went out in 2017, 2017 to go and reconnect with them.

Was that sort of spurred on by your previous documentary or series by heading out there? Yes. A few things had happened along my career path, career path. Is that good enough? I don’t know quite what my career is. I had been, I had a lucky break and I was talking to Charlie Walker about this those who want to become adventures or explorers.

Oh, it’s very difficult financially. It just, it’s definitely, isn’t easy. A few people get picked out and it made TV personalities effect essentially, but they difficult for them actually to do any true exploration with health and safety and all of that, but they can make money. The rest of us it’s very difficult.

But I had a [00:16:00] break after. How many years, 10 years or so I’ve written five books just scraping along, working in a warehouse, doing the best I could. The BBC gave me and a camera and they said, can you film what you do? So this became the beginning of self filming on tele. I was very lucky to have that sort of break, but it years had gone by.

And I was invited to go back to that community that I went through the initiation ceremony with, because I was. During the project with Frank Gardner BBC security correspondent, he wants to see birds of paradise. I knew new Guinea very well, and it’s wonderful. We went back to new Guinea. He’s all this village, Canon gay, where with that initiation ceremony.

And it was absolutely brilliant being reunited with them after generation. I hadn’t been back there for a long, long time. I felt I had to move on mentally from this community. And then extraordinary thing happened. I’d bumped into someone who’s called [00:17:00] Michael. And he said, do you remember me? I said, not really.

He said, don’t you remember? We climbed this mountain. We went up the central range together with the first people up there. Well, the first people to cross this mountain and he began telling me about this trip. I had done with him when he was only 17. He said, Oh, it almost killed me. It was terrible. I said, Oh, it was quite hard.

And we began, rememberings extraordinary expedition and a tickler, an encounter with the iPhone, the iPhone, where an uncontacted group up in the mountains, they were the ones who had helped me over that mountain. In fact, Michael had handed me on to them. And he said, do you know what the guy is still there?

No one in all these years, no missionary, no doctor, nurse, no outsider. None of us have done the journey that you did all those years ago. I thought this is extraordinary and the heifers are still there on this mountain. So I decided to go [00:18:00] back and find out what had happened to the iPhone. I just want to see if they’re okay.

And they had done this wonderful thing for me all those years before helping me over this mountain that. They themselves have never crossed. So off I went, I was landed by helicopter on the lowlands. Found Michael again, Michael, absolutely horrified that he couldn’t do this journey all over again, that he dreaded what he did.

He was any seem to be recovering from it all these years later. Not enough. We went after 30 years ago, but ice is our first journey and we found the iPhone and it was the most wonderful thing to find that these characters are known, who were so good to be Lydia to go as an innocent young man were still coping.

On their own, on the mountain, despite the gold rush that was all around. And despite all sorts of other problems that they faced. And so that’s, that’s the journey ideas with the lifer [00:19:00] or to find the iPhone. And unfortunately that journey all went wrong. I tried to leave the mountain.

I came over the central range towards the outside world and found my weight blocked by communal fighting. Our communities were battling it out. I couldn’t get out. I got malaria, I got dengue fever and it all was pretty bad. And. Later on. I discovered I become a center of international headlines, could explore a lost Explorer, keeping that by cannibals lists, these stories were coming out.

And eventually a helicopter came in sorts of by the daily mail and and did get me out. But it was an interesting episode if only because I was criticized quite a lot, because I hate. Was someone who hadn’t taken a phone, I hadn’t taken a GPS [00:20:00] or any backup. And a lot of people thought this is just really irresponsible in this day and age.

Why not take this stuff? And my answer. W at the time was the same answer I’ll give now, which is that for me, you know, I’m not a new, I’m not a beginner of this. I’ve spent my entire life doing its business without this backup. And it’s all about trying to. Explore the world on local people’s terms. So I explained to Michael, as we did this journey, look, you know, there’s, there’s new, there’s new backup, and that was going to come and help us.

Cause I don’t want to see you as a guide. I want to use a friend because you are a friend and you and the others who helped me. I can understand that if you want to do this journey, we’re all in this together. And the truth is they could get me out quicker than any helicopter bird. And. So it was, I suppose, [00:21:00] there’s a philosophy I didn’t want to abandon on that last expedition.

And it was in fact, a problem with the outside world, not the problem with the locals that have got me into trouble because essentially it was a gold mining activity that had created jealousy at their four walls. And that is what stopped me getting out. But I, I think it’s. I still stand by that philosophy that it’s, you’ve gotta be prepared to do the journey on the terms of the locals.

At least if you’re trying to understand their world in a different, if you’re on the polls and there aren’t people there. But if you’re someone who comes in as an outsider, you’ve gotta be prepared to live the life of the local people, which is what I did. And I wanted them. To be able to trust me and see me as a friend and one of them.

And I would have helped them as much as they didn’t that helped me. But I think there’s a bigger point without [00:22:00] going on about it too much, which is that. We are incredibly connected in our world. And people often say, what is the point of an Explorer nowadays? I think large part of what the Explorer’s point is is that these, the people go out into another world and bring back information that eye witnesses to another world, whether it’s the rainforest, a little out in the ocean.

Or, or anywhere else. And is that incredibly important to be disconnected, to not be connected to the world that we belong in and more important than ever, because we are so relaxed on our phones and all the rest. Yeah. I suppose it’s always nice to leave that behind. How did you feel when you sort of came to the knowledge of all the fallout that was happening?

I don’t know if you’ll confirm. Yeah. As I said, for me, is it, it’s more than nice. I [00:23:00] just felt it’s absolutely crucial that we separate. If we’re going on a journey, we have to do that journey mentally and physically. Yeah. I was quite shocked, very mind. I was ill. No one has ever shown much interest in my journeys.

I mean, I hadn’t been on telly for a long, long time. And even when I was on tele, I was never a TV presenter. I was an Explorer. I was an adventurer who was capturing that experience by camera. So it was the worlds of really that. Suddenly there’s all this interest in me and it was pretty bad. I think the newspaper coverage of me being lost was only about five days or so.

And I thought, how could it be such a big story with me just having been at a con tact, I suppose I’d been out of contact for about three weeks, but I hadn’t, I wasn’t behind schedule for more than about five days. That’s very brief amount of time too. Yeah, all sorts of things can [00:24:00] happen a small flood or sort of that.

And so it’s alarmed me that we’ve got, so the world has got so into such a state where people are so connected, we expect to be in touch with everyone that this has become such a story. Yeah. I, I S I suppose when, you know, yeah. When you were my age and you were sort of going out there wasn’t any, there were phones, but you’d have to sort of get a payphone spend about what a quit probably now per minute to phone home.

Whereas now you have it almost instant. You just send a message and within two seconds it’s gone. And I suppose people have become almost reliant on that form of communication. And so when that disappears, they always fear the worst. Yeah. And it’s become normal for adventurous to be in contact even on the summit of Everest.

[00:25:00] And I I’ll always be a bit suspicious of that because I’ll feel, but. The people who do this and what my peers, I suppose, or some of them are I feel that they haven’t let go mentally. They’ll always know that they can reach home. And of course the health reasons for doing that. But on the other hand, perhaps we have to be a bit braver and say, I’m not prepared to do the journey.

And that’s, I’m really, I’m going to commit to it. What do you think the future holds for the modern adventurer? Yeah, basically the modern Ventura, I mean, looking back on your 30 years of how you started to now, how do you sort of feel, or the future holds for people who want to go exploring? I think the journey is that I did has can’t be done.

I mean, there, isn’t the possibility of just. Walking day after day, week after, week into [00:26:00] a place that isn’t mapped. So there’s the classic journeys are finished, but I think that’s fine because there are other things to explore. What I try and do is emphasize that we are all explorers by our very nature.

Humans are inquisitive. They’re fascinated by the world, around them. And for some, it could just be. That was brought in the world through the internet, but we’re still driven by curiosity. So I think we don’t, we shouldn’t panic. We shouldn’t be too disappointed that there are all these big heroic journeys to do.

In terms of those, the classic idea of someone setting off and disappearing into the unknown. But I also think that is a role for

okay.

Adventure still people to head off and we interpret the world. [00:27:00] I’m sorry. It might sign it. It says your internet. You still hearing me? Yeah, I did something. You just don’t worry. I would just say that again. I think, I think there still is a role for people to head off. Into the world and experience it and interpret it for their time.

Because someone like David Livingston, we think of him as the classic Explorer there, he was in the heart of Africa searching for the source of denial. Actually, a lot of what he did was simply to bring back an idea of Africa to Europe. The Arabs knew central Africa incredibly well. And of course the Africans themselves knew it very well, but he’s bringing a picture of Africa back to us and that’s what we need to remember.

We all. Interpreting the world for our present era. I also think that there are a lot of this revolves about human experience. And that is why I think it’s important for us to disconnect because I think that is what [00:28:00] is the present it’s stifling exploration, and the fact that we’re not letting go emotionally.

Or even physically have them from our own companions from world coattails a lot of our adventures. If we can just have the courage to leave all this stuff behind and head off and disappear for a month. How often does anyone disappear for more than a couple of days out of? Hmm. I think these incredibly exciting experiences to be brought back.

The idea of just sort of getting out. Oh, I th I think there’s a sort of term now, digital detox centers. I think that’s sort of, Oh, that sounds good.

But yeah, I suppose the idea is to sort of get out in a, turn your mobile off, get, just get away, get, get out into a sort of wild situation [00:29:00] where you’re not sort of reliant on modern. What’s the word modern luxuries that you take for granted every day? Yeah, I think it’s, it’s been the same potentially Israeli that the idea of just stepping aside from the comforts of life, from the, from things that make you feel safe is incredibly important.

And that’s the same for anyone, whether you’re. Someone who’s going on a walk with your dog or a little old lady who climbs a Hill. I’m so much more excited often by so-called ordinary people who just push themselves to their limit rather than someone who’s climbing Everest. Because I know the person finds Everest in theory is a specialist.

The fact that anyone can just go out there and they may be really scared to go wandering in the woods. For an afternoon, but that’s okay. That, that is still an, an adventure. And I think that experience should be captured and shared. I think for all the [00:30:00] adventures, the exploring part of it is also part of the sharing part of it.

I think it’s that communicating back is incredibly important and valuable and It’s it’s what lifts us, all the feeling that there are people out there pushing our limits. Yeah. It’s, it’s quite a sort of funny how, I mean, you look at the sort of exploring all the traveling industry now, which some of them are on YouTube, but your sort of you pioneered the idea of just holding a camera to your face and filming it, which is now common.

All around the internet, all around sort of filming people, do it all the time. But back in your back, when you started, that was just completely unheard of. Yes. Well, it was yeah, I did the sort of first [00:31:00] I suppose brought the experience of an exhibition for the first one to tell it the real, everyday ups and downs and expeditions, there’d been people filming on film.

But not just keeping the camera going and giving you the full experience of what it’s like to be afraid or excited without a film crew. And so I feel bad about it as well because it’s, there’s this sense of self obsession as well. If you’re filming yourself, it’s a bit You know, I think we’re too obsessed with ourselves.

And exploration has always had this, this problem in a way of the Explorer using the landscape as a wonderful stage on which to perform their great acts. And there’s something not very nice about that. So yes, there’s bad side to that side, which I encourage her either. Going reached the very fact that I was out there sort of filming myself.

Luckily I think my incompetence in various ways also came [00:32:00] through and yeah, I think, I think that’s, it made it very human. The fact that I was actually recording everything from, you know, go off to the lose somewhere or have to, my adoption would be filming while I was brushing my teeth. I think Yeah, it was, it was lovely though.

It’s great to have a chance to do something that would move expiration expeditions on in a way. Yeah. Just sort of gives it the raw feel for the audience. And so how do you prepare for these? How did you prepare for, let’s say the Papua New Guinea expedition? Was it, are you, I mean, of course people prepare differently, but in terms of yours, was it very much, you have the idea and you just wanted to go and do it.

And so you went the original expedition. We went through the initiation ceremony. Yeah. Yeah, I, well, physically [00:33:00] I, what I do is run and do press ups and that’s my main activity back here. So I arrived in a fairly fit state. Mentally. I have things fairly open that was. A strange expedition. I was still rebounding in a way from this extraordinary experience of being in the Northeast, Amazon.

When I, I knew I had survived by luck and that’s a terrible thought, no one should be conducting an expedition by luck. You know, you can’t learn luck coming your way all the time. And so I knew I’d been lucky to get away with it. And I knew I had to educate myself fast if I was going to carry on. So I went back to the warehouse, worked again, stacking books in his warehouse, went off to new Guinea with an open mind, but knowing that I wanted to deposit myself in a remote bit of rainforest, I knew I didn’t want to get back to the Amazon where it almost died.

That’s not a good [00:34:00] idea. Go somewhere else. So we went to new Guinea and yeah, first of all, I live with vague remote people in West Papua that across the border, I was looking for someone to settle down and educate myself. And this found myself with this community and the middle Seabeck. There were about.

Well, they, they desperately wanted to hold an initiation ceremony, which they hadn’t done for 10 years. And a lot of the elders were very, very scared of holding this ceremony. Again. They hope this spirits might be angry and that sounds terrible the way I’ve said it, like some sort of Hollywood script, but actually there was reality that their ancestors have a sort of presence there.

They believed. And they were worried that. They had neglected them for years. When I came along, it just was one of those things. I, I tipped the balance. I made the other thing, Oh, it’s an outsider. Who’s not calling a stone age or backward or primitive. And he [00:35:00] values our culture and it. The ceremony happened discuss, I had turned up.

Yeah. And then I had to sort of surrender to it, but I was sort of, you know, say 24, I was up for anything really. And I’ve got a, quite a high pain threshold, luckily. So that, wasn’t sort of, in the foremost of my mind, I was just thinking what a privilege, what a chance to learn, what keeps this culture going through the ceremony.

And become a man and strongest crocodile. I mean, it sounded brilliant. I thought. And then because the whole thing was secret and sacred. I didn’t know that about it would be, I mean, it was terrible. At first day, my head was shaven and I was led into the so-called crocodile nest, a big arena. It was erected around the spirit house.

We were led into this arena, me and 16 other initiates with our little grass skirts. It’s about an in, we went [00:36:00] and all the elders set upon us with sticks. I just began clubbing us. Luckily that first day we were protected by our uncles. But then I had an honorary uncle. But then yeah, after that it got worse really, because they were no longer there to protect us.

And yeah, in the cutoff skins, that was bad. That was, I think we lost about two points of bloody, you know, having our skins cut with these bamboo blades. Yeah, that was, as I say, bad But anyway, it wasn’t as bad as the beating, which happened five times a day and went on. I mean, after a couple of weeks of this, you know, you’re getting sick of it.

And then it went over another full week. And yet, you know, I still felt it was a privilege and because it was, I’ve been given the chance to see a sacred ritual there’s no one else had [00:37:00] an outside world recorded or suddenly gone through Yeah. When I came away with this extraordinary self knowledge, I suppose.

But also feeling of. Pride. And also preparation. Does that mean preparation for young men to go out and make something of themselves, obviously for the sake of the village, but also for the sake of themselves. And that now was my preparation, not just in terms of one sending out culture, which I did go back to a couple of years later.

But also in life, I felt, okay. Now it’s time to be an Explorer. And do it in the same fashion. Go listen for the load to the locals, and then using that ad off on our testing journey. I don’t think we’ve had anyone on the show who’s had quite the travel story or [00:38:00] experience or like that. Well, it’s, it’s different from say Sean Conway, who I think you’ve heard all who’s doing exploration in a different way.

I think for him. I can’t speak for him, but his journey isn’t inspiring to me because he’s, you can see he’s pushing himself, he’s pushing himself. And it’s not only just doing that. He’s drawing others with him. He’s pied Piper of of the of the running track or the, the roadway because he sort of sucking a huge amount of people along with him.

And I think there are all sorts of different explorers out there. And as I say, I think we all know explorers by nature. So the more people are out there encouraging others the better. Yeah. Well, there’s a part of the show where we ask the same five questions to each guest each week. Ooh. I think I mentioned.

[00:39:00] I only went to rehearse this or something. Anyway, I should do my best, you know, to the first one. Th th they’re very easy. It’s sort of on your trips. What’s the one item or gadget that you always bring with you. Oh, do you know it isn’t easy. Yeah. Sorry. I often see you say you bring nothing. I’m sure.

Yeah. That’s why it’s not easy. I always have a survival kit on my expeditions because this varies from place to place habitat to habitat. But my mum, when I close it out to the keynote, we having a survival kit. She’d read somewhere. That’s all exposed as a slide looking. And I suppose. It’s changed.

Now, the most valuable thing for me is a photo of my family. I’ve got three little children and and the wife, I should say. I think that is the most valuable thing I have. [00:40:00] With me on journeys now, because it reminds me when times are bad, but this is that I got to get back in it. This is not about me.

It’s about others out there and there is a world out there. So two or three years ago when I was stuck in new Guinea and I was. Yeah, I was going to die if I didn’t get out because I had thank you. Even when they’re trapped by warring factions. I get, I’m looking at this photo, particularly one actually of my boy, Freddie and Natalia, my older daughter.

They were running at me in this photo with such a glee in their faces and they had snowballs and the hands they’ve just about to throw these nibbles at me, it’s just seeing them vulnerable needing me to get out. That was incredibly important. Yeah. So I think that would be what I would take a photo of them.

What is your, sorry? What is your favorite adventure book or travel [00:41:00] book? Hmm.

Yeah. Yes. I would have thought I would have one but I do I don’t really know. I I’ve got the hundreds of travel books and I reviewed travel books. I sit on panels do will prizes for travel books. There’s one that Springs out, which is in Patagonia by Bruce Chatwin and. I mentioned it simply because it was a early influence on me. It was just at the time when I was stacking books in the warehouse for my first expedition gathering myself together.

And this one was selling like in a thing and it made me think, wow, maybe I can document my journey. So yeah, in Patagonia by Bruce chaplain, he’s not an Explorer in ways. [00:42:00] Quite a fantasy list. But nonetheless, I knew his mum and dad and again, it was a sign that it was possible to do these things.

Yeah. Okay. That’s a good one. I, I haven’t haven’t come across it yet. Hmm, no, no. Are tweeting you why are adventures important to you?

I think because they show us what is possible and inspire us to do the same in our own way. And we live carelessly through them. We think, ah, that’s great. I can never do that. But we also uplifted and hopefully we also encouraged to do the same in an environment that suits us. What is your favorite quote?

[00:43:00] Am I allowed to choose one of my own

very self-indulgent, but it’s all I can think of. Just off the top of my head. I’m trying to think. There’s another one out there. Hmm. There are lots out there. And in fact, I do an Explorer coach of the day on Twitter every day, but I can only think of something I have on my website, which is to me exploration isn’t about planting a flag or concrete nature or going somewhere in order to make a Mark.

It’s about totally the opposite of that. It’s about opening yourself up, allowing yourself to be vulnerable. And allowing the place to make its Mark on you. Very nice. Well, I’m sure you can’t even say that was a bit of rubbish. Anyway, it is meant it’s about how important it is [00:44:00] to not just assert yourself, but try and learn from it.

After your trip in Papua New Guinea, you came into quite a lot of flack by the guardian from the UK. Yes. I thought it was almost racist and scent in the sense that it was all about how a white middle-class person who’d gone off almost like a sort of Playboy to, just to sort of have a jolly out in new Guinea.

And it was an old trope really that the white man has to be an imperialist, but my entire career. As I’ve gotten on and on about it with you it’s meant to be a raging. That idea that’s actually I’m very aware of the imperialism that has been in expiration and that I think we have to do the opposite.

We have to listen and learn. So it was very [00:45:00] ill-informed article in particular that I’m thinking of in the guardian. Because yes, there is a tradition of him. It’s a thing. Your Willem places, but it wasn’t what I was about. And so it was very lazy thinking. So there we are. I think she came into quite a lot of stick for us as well.

Well the thing is that I had a lot of support from lovely people and even not very nice people fellow explorers who, some of them who were being quite really to about Oh, I’d try to be kind and everything, but, but really. I had lovely response from a lot of them. And they stepped in and said, look, this is not fair.

So it was fairly nice, actually it be heartwarming. So a lot of people stood by me who I thought, Oh, just using aspirations as a career. And they’re not [00:46:00] interested in places and people at all. So they, it’s a lovely thing. Lovely thing, actually, that came out a bit, which was Yeah. There’s not a great people out there.

As the Humphreys had some big kind of things around fines yeah, the bloke whose name. I do know incredibly well, but I’ve forgotten and walked down the Nile. Bruce knows me. No, not him not. I love her some word. There was some word. Great. He said some other things that was very heartening, they heartening.

And I think yeah, was a swipe patchouli at the whole, the whole idea of the white band going out rather than me. I just represented the the, the typical sort of adventurer generally is fairly privileged, but it’s, it’s too lazy just to say that we’re all doing it for our own benefit. But I [00:47:00] think there’s a role, but all sorts of explorers.

And it’s, it’s too easy just to criticize people because they have gone out there and done things. Yeah. People listening are always keen to travel and go on these big granted adventures. What’s the one thing you would recommend for people wanting to come and explore or explore? Yes. And by the way, have we got to the end of your five questions or have you given up with this?

I didn’t ask them very well. The last one. Okay. Yeah, I I’d say start not too big. It’s. Yes. It’s very hard to get a chance in life to go away for a whole year, for example, to step aside from the job and pay the mortgage. And it’s just hard ordinary life for most people. But try [00:48:00] and do something small.

First cause then you can put your foot in the water, see what your strengths are, what you start and what you really want to do. I think it’s very easy to come up with a great idea, like a cycle around the world, or I read somewhere some people who are on a tandem bike, a man and woman, a couple going off around the world.

These are great, but I think it’s simply important to us to take a step by step and do a trial to. Fuck up damn Scotland. A couple of times, just to see how you, if that’s really what you want to do. Because yes, you work, you get a few chances to do a big adventure. So it’s better just to just give it a practice first, before you set out to see if that’s what you want to do with this valuable chance that you cool.

Okay. Yeah, I did feel you’ve, I’ve convinced you there. Know. I completely agree. Yeah. I think before I, well, I actually [00:49:00] sort of just jumped into it straight by cycling across America, but for one of my trips to sort of plan everything I cycled up to Edinburgh came back just to sort of, I didn’t didn’t know that I’ve got right country.

That’s true. I mean, The other thing is I think making mistakes early I would house David naive. And I was lucky as I’ve said to get away with it. And on my first Amazon expedition, I didn’t have a clue what I was doing. Luckily I was helped along by various people, but if I had made those mistakes early, if I had joined the Duke of Edinburgh’s award, or if I had been a boy scout or just went off on a lot of camping trips I would have been better prepared and there’s nothing like making mistakes early.

Cause that’s the time you learn. And [00:50:00] yeah, I was, I was very fortunate, but I, it might easily have gone badly wrong. Yeah. And so what are you doing now and how can people follow your journeys and adventures? Oh, well, I’m, I’m stuck like all of us sort of moments due to the barriers lock downs and and binding.

So gathering myself. But I haven’t quite chosen the next exhibition. There will be something happening and it’s the question of what country is safe to visit from point of view of the locals with COVID. So for example, Papua New Guinea is closed now to entirely to outside Indonesia pretty well.

It is. And so I don’t know what is, what will transpire, I do want to go back to back and you need to finish the journey that I didn’t manage to complete because of. It’s warring factions and it’ll be challenging, possibly dangerous because [00:51:00] humans have am reliable. And I meant to be an expert at rainforest.

Travel. But that’s not to do with the human factor of people. Who’ve got a gun you know, anything can happen. So I’ve got to be careful about that. That’s what, that’s what I’m I had this foremost in my mind. And I hope to do that this year, but we shall see. I, yeah, so my website is Benedict talent.com.

And I try and tweet every day, some sort of inspiring thought motivation through exploration is that I think I should call it that, that sounds really good. And so I try and try and be positive on Twitter and Instagram once a week as well. Do a little video. Amazing. Yeah. I’ve been following your Explorer of the week on Instagram.

Ooh. Oh yes. Oh, good. All right. Let’s follow it. Surely the more that for people listening, you can check, check [00:52:00] Benedict out on Twitter and Instagram and I mean, your stories are absolutely incredible and I can’t thank you enough for coming on today and, and telling them. Oh, that’s okay. Ooh, I’ve got a book coming out Explorer, it’s called Explorer.

And it, I’m not saying that just to get it back to me again. Conversation, but it’s just, it’s quite insane. It’s something we’ve touched on quite a lot, which is what in, what is the role of an Explorer? That’s what the book is about, but it’s I think it’s, as I say, the central idea. Of the book, but mainly just in our conversation today is that we all are explorers.

I just think it’s important to remember that because it’s so easy to think, Oh, it’s already well for them out there, these people who’ve got money or time or, or the inclination. What about us with our busy lives? You know, but you can get away. Even if it’s for a [00:53:00] day, just to have just get outside yourself and your world and find another one.

Yeah. Well when it’s the book out or is it coming out soon? No, I wouldn’t show it. Say shamelessly plugged it if it was already available. No, it’s a it’s I think August is the latest assessment has been put off for a year publication. They’re sitting there waiting to, you know but yeah. Well, well, when it’s we’ll put it up on the website and you can buy it.

Yeah. Do you have, and for your friends and family and yeah, by 50. Well Benedict, thank you so much for coming on today. Yeah, no, thank you. No, I’ve enjoyed our chat. Yeah, well, it is it for today. Thank you so much for watching and I hope you got something out of it. Hit that like button and comment below what you thought.

Subscribe. If you haven’t already, and I will see you in the next video.

EP.016: Lizzie Daly

Lizzie Daly (wildlife biologist)

On today’s Podcast, we have Lizzie Daly is a wildlife biologist and conservation filmmaker from Wales. A healthy curiosity for the natural world has lead her to conduct research and make wildlife films all over the world. Lizzie is currently studying a PhD on how we can protect and coexist alongside the African elephants in Kenya by attaching tags. We discuss why wildlife conservation is important to everyone and how people can help in order to protect natural habitats.

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Transcript of our Conversation

Lizzie Daly

[00:00:00] Lizzie Daly: Hello. And welcome back to another episode of the modern adventure podcast coming up, understanding how we can better conceive African elephants and an important part of that conversation right now is absolutely considering the fact that we aren’t. Effectively coexisting alongside them. So for those who may not know, listening that conflict with humans and elephants in across Laikipia in Kenya is, is a big issue, especially in the dry season, you know, there’s excessive fence breaking excessive drop rating which leads to.

You know, issues directly between humans and elephants. So

on today’s show. We have Lizzie Daley, a wildlife biologist [00:01:00] specializing in African elephants in Kenya. We talked to her about some of the incredible stuff that she’s done in the last few years, traveling all over the world and seeing some of the most incredible things. I am delighted to introduce Lizzie daily to the show.

So for the last three years, you’ve been traveling all around the world, going on these crazy sort of expeditions, Filming. But doing photography with wildlife, how did you get into doing what you’re doing now? Oh, gosh, it could be a long-winded answer. So that’s a good question. But essentially I’ve kind of go back a few years, even before I went to do my masters in Bristol.

For me, it’s always been about the wildlife and it’s always been about wanting to be a scientist and someone who, you know, Is it, it’s an expert, if you like not great word to use, but someone who’s just like very much involved in that world. And [00:02:00] for whatever reason as I started to do, you know, I knew I wanted to study animals and animal behavior.

So I started my degree at university of Exeter and I decided that. Telling stories about the natural world, as well as being out there, exploring it, making the most of it and sharing that with others is absolutely what I want to do. So the broadcasting world the, the, my passion for the natural world, kind of just combined in this.

Ridiculous combination of, of what is now potentially a career you could say, obviously COVID hit, but yeah, it’s, it’s kind of resulted in me being very lucky and having some incredible experiences with a variety of species across a variety of places. And I’m somehow calling it a bit of a job. I’m also studying my PhD.

So, you know, first and foremost, I am a scientist and I absolutely love wildlife first and foremost, I just [00:03:00] get the, up to the opportunity to go out and tell stories through presenting and filmmaking and taking photos too. And so you sort of got started with this, you’re a wildlife biologist. What does a wildlife biologist do on a sort of daily basis?

Oh, gosh, that’s a good question. I’m not sure you’d want to actually know because typically a wildlife biologist is like sat in front of a laptop and analyzing data or satin and lab or analyzing data, but there is a fun side too. So studying wildlife as well. You know, you get to go out in the field.

You get to, so for me I’m using tags and tag technology to better understand African elephant behavior. So that has involved a few trips out to Kenya has involved learning more about some of the issues with African elephants. In that landscape. And it will, when COVID passes involve going out back in the field to deploy some more tags, which is, [00:04:00] is very exciting.

But to be honest, you know, it’s a bit of, a bit of both. It is a bit of lap time. It is a bit a laptop time and fingers crossed the Morefield time to come. So you spend quite a lot of time in Kenya with elephants. What what. For people listening and people watching what exactly you say you’re sort of tagging them, or are you more sort of looking at the communities that the elephants roam through and sort of looking at how they can co-exist.

Again, like where are you? Good question. Just because my, so back in 2018 now my initial interest in that area, I mean you know, you know, knowing that Kenya landscape and some of the issues there with elephants w was this coexistence, because for me, it’s all about understanding how we can better conserve.

African elephants and an important part of that [00:05:00] conversation right now is absolutely considering the fact that we aren’t. Effectively coexisting alongside them. So for those who may not know, listening that conflict with humans and elephants in across Laikipia and Kenya is, is a big issue, especially in the dry season, you know, there’s excessive fence breaking, excessive, cooperating which leads to, you know, issues directly between.

Humans and elephants. So when I went in 2018, I went to write my PhD proposal. I went to work alongside space for giants, and I really had just three months there to get my head around some of these issues and what, you know, what was really my passion and what I’m interested in. So in that respect, you know, in that time, I learned very quickly that it is very much all about community led conservation in that the whole picture is about people and elephants.

However, you know, at the moment, if you were to ask me right now, what [00:06:00] my research is it’s very technical and I won’t bore you with that over the next 40 minutes, but it’s essentially understanding fine scale movements of African elephants. So the idea is that with this data, that. That collects so many points of, of data, even in the second, in every aspect of an elephant’s movement from that data, we’ll be able to get important information about state.

So state being whether an elephant perhaps is stressed or, you know, basically the internal drivers of behavior. So my current research is very behavioral focused and very focused on the animals themselves, but ultimately. That I hope will then lead on to looking at how we may better understand some of the elephants, the on, I put it in for diplomas problem elephants to, to be able to prevent further issues with things like cooperating and fence breaking.

I suppose, when people, because [00:07:00] I know that Kenya in the last sort of 10 years has had its issues with poaching. I suppose people listening when they sort of. See or hear about sort of elephants dying in Africa. They immediately, what Springs to mind is poaching, but a lot of it sort of focused around communities and elephants eating crops that they’ve planted destroying livelihoods.

Where do you, yeah, sorry. Where do you sort of see. They’re sort of going because in the last hundred years, Kenya’s population has gone from 2 million to 65 million and is ever expanding. And of course, with this sort of growing population there space is becoming more and more constricted for the sort of movement of elephants, which have the sort of ancient roots going through.

Yeah. [00:08:00] Yeah. Well, I mean, very two very good points there. And I think a lot of people don’t think of conflicts being the first issue. And the one that actually I think is glaring a lot of us in the face and we don’t actually realize that. Unfortunately, not just in Kenya, you know, with the largest lawn mammal on earth, even here, we’re experiencing issues with conflict in overlapping habitats.

With wildlife, we see an increase in number of urban foxes being pushed into urban areas, even here on our doorsteps. But it’s the same thing, right? It’s this ongoing pressure on our wildlife, on our habitats. Based on the fact that we are a growing world population, where do I see it going? I think there’s a number of really, I kind of want to stay positive of this because there are a number really.

Positive methods or mitigations, if you like, you know, you hear of the beef fences that some in some places it’s really [00:09:00] successful putting basically a fence around crops made of bee hives where that farmer like local stakeholder can, can can actually have the honey sell on the honey. So it actually benefits them and elephants hate bees so effectively or.

Supposed to effectively keep elephants out. More known term mitigations are elephant proof fences, which can work. And also, well I’ll come on to why they can’t, but when they can work essentially is to allow elephants to roam free in areas where it’s safe to do so without, you know, coming against local communities and destroying those livelihoods.

The issue that you have is that you’re dealing with it very intelligent. Very social and constantly adapting species. Right. And some of the fence designs that they have tried previously which are absolutely brilliant. Haven’t always been successful because elephants learn, they learn so quickly. And you know, so space for [00:10:00] giants who who I spent time with those Dr.

Lauren Evans. Who’s fantastic. She’s one of the. One of the co-founders of space for giants. She sets out camera traps, and they were looking at how elephants find all sorts of ways to climb over fences. You know, literally over them, they push down the fence. There’s supposedly sightings of these elephants army crawling like under these kind of metal poles stick out from fences.

So just incredibly well adapted and highly intelligent. But ultimately I think if we. Change our approach to. Basically how do I put this into words? I think we should change our whole approach to look at how actually we live alongside these elephants. If we can create, for example, huge natural corridors, which are suitable for elephants, there will be no need to push into.

You know, areas of crops and come into areas of local communities. It’s about, I guess, understanding that. Yeah, we are a [00:11:00] growing, especially in Kenya, you know, growing human population exponentially, but we need to start really thinking about how we can live alongside as opposed to living in conflict with that’s a long-winded way of saying it’s not easy.

There’s lots of different short and long-term ways, but we have to kind of. We have to think of solution, to be honest, we’ve got to do it quickly. I think my time out there, I, there was a very good sort of case study in the mass. Aymara where. I think back in sort of 1995 or something, one sort of president and his election said that he would give land to all the mass Amara tribe.

And of course you gave them all 50 acres. They split, they cut them up, put fence around them. And then the wildlife had nowhere to roam. And of course it didn’t really work. And so they implemented a sort of strategy of sort of community led whereby they brought in tourism and there was always [00:12:00] space for their cattle to roam in certain areas.

And they all got their cattle together and it was a very effective way of what’s the word effective way of keeping the game happy, thriving. And also their chance to have that cattle, which are a huge part of their culture, which they loved absolutely community led con conservation is the way, I mean, when I was in in LA Saba Conservancy, you know, one of the things they would do marrow is taking out.

Local schools and showing them the wildlife that’s on their doorstep and teaching them about how, you know, building a relationship with a wildlife on your doorstep is so important. And, and these are the ways that you can do it. So, yeah, absolutely. I guess the additional factor here is that, and I’m sure you’ve seen this as well.

You know, there’s huge ecological pressures on places like Kenya. Like I was there in [00:13:00] November. 2019 and extreme flooding, you know, completely extreme flooding way early way late in the season. It was just wiping out. Of course, all these crops and all these necessary bits of land, which otherwise would, would actually not have the pressure of elephants on at that time of year.

So yeah, lots to think about. Hmm. So in your sort of time out there what were you sort of doing other than tagging where you sort of with a sort of different communities, were you doing sort of with the Rangers doing anti-poaching training or anything like that? Yeah. So I spent, so again, I was kind of with space vagina the whole time, but within that I was looking at how space for giants have this model about how to conserve and what they do to effectively do that across, across the region.

And with. With the people of Kenya. So we went to [00:14:00] old projector and looked at the anti-poaching poaching team, them filmed with them which were, it’s just absolutely fantastic. They’re just such a brilliant team. And I’ll, I guess I’ll projector is, is one of the more well-known ones because of the Saddam, the Northern white rhino was in old Projeta but they have a, yeah, I got a taste of, of kind of what it’s like with.

With the drugs, the dogs, they’re the anti-poaching dogs and they’re training in old page. I went up to low Sabal Conservancy and learned all about the coloring of the lions as part of a land lion landscape project. I also shadowed the Kenya wildlife service for a day. Trans basically went on a translocation of three bull elephants that were being moved from the region.

I think it was I can’t remember the name of the Conservancy now. It’s not far from Nanyuki. It’s about an hour or so away. There’ve been moved. I think it was [00:15:00] hundreds of kilometers also away because this one particular bull elephant kept on cooperating, kept on returning to the same area. So he was being trans translocated by the Kenyan wildlife service.

So I, to be honest, I just did a real mix of things, as well as spending time in the field. IDing, elephants, taking photographs, just loving. Yeah. Yeah, of course. And you’re, you’re quite a big runner as well. Are you not. Absolutely love it. I don’t know what it is about. Just I, I wouldn’t say I’m a very good runner, but I just really enjoy it.

You know, just getting a bit muddy and having a good time. Yeah. Because they sort of see on your social media, you you’re sort of out running in the countryside in the national parks. Have you, have you always been a big runner? I have, yeah, I’d say kind of, as I’ve got older, my, my. Running style or at least, [00:16:00] or at least what I enjoy more has changed.

So I’ve always enjoyed kind of going somewhere a little bit more wild off the beaten track if you like, but I prefer kind of bigger, bigger challenges and bigger routes and not ultra running, but, you know, kind of heading more towards like something a bit more significant than a 5k round, a local Lake, if you know what I mean.

Yeah, absolutely. Because you did this trip in Portugal. Could you will happen with that? Yeah. So I I do dumb marathon when I was 19. And for me, that was like my first taste of like a bit of a longer run. And I absolutely loved the Linder mouth and it was brilliant. And so, gosh, okay. Let’s try and level it up.

So I think the next year it was, I, I decided I’d run. 72 miles through from Brechin down the Tufts trail down to Cardiff. So that was like another, okay. Really [00:17:00] enjoying this over a few days. And then I decided that I wanted to up it again. So kind of packed a tent picked a charity, which world land trust I was raising money for at the time.

And I, to be honest, I wanted to pick somewhere in Europe. I think don’t think a lot of people kind of go to. Think of Europe as a great place where you can kind of run off kind of off the beaten track and across beautiful places. Or at least at the time I didn’t and thought why not Portugal? It’s got an absolutely beautiful coastline.

It’s a place I’ve, I’ve been to before. And so I sat out a 200 mile route down the coastline North to South. Dad just, yeah, just take a tent and off I went. And tried to do it in 10 days and died and process. Yeah, it was pretty brutal, but great fun. Well, I said, what was your read sort of going from.

Oh, my gosh. I [00:18:00] can’t even remember now. Where was I? Hang on. I went to Paul, I went Porto and then just went South from there. That was literally my route. I just picked poor term was like, right. I’m going to go from here. And I’m pretty much just followed the coastline, you know? My friend Rowan, who, who isn’t on this just, yeah.

Focus. For to bicycle. She came cycling cycle, the last section of it with me. But otherwise it was like up at four, you know, trying to get, get the runs in before it got too hot in the day. And then just, just basically camping out at night and making my way down. Downsize. It was really brilliant. The habitats as well.

It was really nice. Cause I kind of went through across beaches and really hidden towns and, you know, have beautiful porch accolades, absolutely stunning place. But also through some really fascinating small microhabitats like reserves along the coast. So yeah, I’m really glad I picked Portugal. It was it was brilliant.

So what you just did, it didn’t take a map or you just follow the route [00:19:00] tool. You just had a backpack on and just went right. Let’s go. Pretty much I picked Porto and was like the coastline. It’s pretty good. And if the C’s on my right, then it should be fine. You know, each day after you run, you kind of pick out where’s good or, or a main route if you like.

But if I was to come across say like a nice boardwalk that would follow the coast closer than fade through a town and I’d go do that. I mean, it was just me. So I guess I’d had no, you know, race. Race direct or proper route to follows is brilliant. It’s quite nice having that sort of freedom to sort of pick and choose because when you’re in a sort of marathon environment where it’s competitive, you’re always, you know, thinking, all right, I’ve got to Kellogg and got to get on, like when you do these marathons around the sort of world, but when you sort of pick and choose and decide when and where.

If you want to stop for an hour and be like, Oh, this is actually really nice. There’s no sort of [00:20:00] pressure. And where were you doing? Sort of covering 40 kilometers, 50 kilometers a day, or? Yeah, I was kind of aiming for about 25 miles a day, which would, would make me kind of be within. My 200 initially was 250 miles.

And I quickly decided that it wasn’t going to be 250 in 10 days. It was quite hot. So I’m kind of like what you’re saying and had that flexibility to say, all right, well, let’s, let’s say for 200 and enjoy it. So my aim was 25 miles a day. And yeah, I mean, Like I said, I could just have that freedom to, to pick a time where I want to start typically earlier, rather than later, before it got way too hot.

But yeah, just lots of flexibility. Yeah. And loving it along the way. The only thing is when you’re, you know, really. So, and just covered in blisters and bleeding from like strange armpit places and all the rest of it. It is a bit hard after a while, as I’m sure you know, that [00:21:00] it’s just like that motivation kind of dips at times you have to kind of pull it together a little.

So w so you sort of just had your backpack and you carried what one set of clothes. And that was,

yeah, I had a few bits in bulbs. I mean, sometimes I. On, on some of the days I would come down a route and then there’d be like this really good access and like bus routes back and stuff. So I think it was two or three of the days that I was like, I w I kind of had all my, my jails, my water. All I needed, but then I kind of, after I finished my run, which just meet my way back and then come back down the coast of the days, I just had like my, my whole rucksack.

It wasn’t a lot like a couple of running, running bits and bobs and classes and all the rest of it. And we’d meet my way down. And then my lovely friend room, we carry some of my staff up to that, which is very good on a bike is a hell of a lot easier. Yeah, she [00:22:00] was having a lovely time, like super lovely time.

I’m sure. But yeah. So also, what was I gonna say? I suppose for people listening, where, where do you sort of see the future of. Wildlife, because as I say with David Attenborough, you know, he came out with his witness statement and we have 30,000 species dying each year. What is probably for people listening.

What is something you feel that they can do that might just maybe help out a little bit? Yeah, such a hard question, you know In your day-to-day life, I guess I think the one message that, you know, the likes of David Attenborough and these big blue chip documentaries and the likes of Gretta Sandberg doing all her activist work, the main message is that you are [00:23:00] responsible in everything that you do and your impact on the planet.

You know, maybe a tiny impacts, for example, you may or may not the cycle you may or not. Decides to cycle to work. It’s a tiny little thing, but every little thing does add up. So I think the one message is that we are all in this together and we are all responsible in some way or another. It’s really up to you, I think in how you want to I guess.

Deal with that, but it’s hard because obviously in documentaries and things, your it’s a very fine line between doom and gloom and being honest about the state of the planet and, you know, without beating around the Bush, we are, we are actually in real trouble, not only with. The warming of the planet, the loss of biodiversity loss the destruction of our oceans, you know, I, I just, the other day I was reading that.

So around the UK, our Marine protected [00:24:00] areas we have hundreds of them across the UK, like 130 yards in Wales and 98% of our offshore MBAs actually experienced, you know, extreme bottle, bottom trawling and dredging. Which is like one of the most destructive activities that can take place and things like MPA.

So I think. Well, first off, I just, I just think that even though conservation is doing everything, it can, we need to do 10 times more. So whether you are a strict conflict conservationist, or whether you’re someone who’s just, you know, a mom at home has got kids, you need to get by day to day, you’ve got to, you know, that’s not really your world.

You still are responsible and very much part of that problem. So as much as I want to say, you know, it’s. We have to do everything we can. It’s also, we have to be realistic about what can be done as long as everyone has the understanding that we all have a tiny parts of place. If you are in a position where you can, you know, walk to [00:25:00] work or trade in your, your diesel car for maybe an electric car or something, then do it, you know, do what you can.

I’m not asking you to, you know, just live out the mud and never speak to anyone again for fare five G. Now I’m doing it. It’s all about being realistic and doing, doing your bit. It’s a long-winded answer.

So there’s a part of the show where we are, well, I’d say the same five questions, but I’ve now changed them. Say you’re the first, first batch. Okay. I’m ready on your trips. What’s the one item or gadget that you always Oh, item or gadgets. Okay. It’s a really new D one. It’s always a pair of binoculars, always.

Do you know for why you could be, it could be out to go see whales. You could [00:26:00] be just on a hike. You will always need a pair of binoculars. And I know that’s really new to youngster, but I’m guaranteed. Someone will at some point go, we’ll start then. And then just that way, come in. It’s like move. Yeah. This sort of extra big, or are they sort of like the littles.

Well, all right, let me get the, hang on. I’ve got a few peds where they know that I’ll be the, my old ones that you saw a classic, you know, you want something, there was actually a bit of an art and a skill to the right binoculars, depending on what you want. Mine are pretty standard. They need to be like, you know, a good pair of weighty, binoculars,

and action. These are all now I’ve got, I’ve got some new ones, some new liker ones, like really pretty and actually always binoculars. Yeah. Very good. What is your favorite adventure or travel book

[00:27:00] or travel book?

That’s a really good question. I would probably lean more towards. A wildlife guide. I’ll tell you. Well, only because it’s one that I got recently and it’s actually on the shelf behind me. It’s a naturalist guide in Nicaragua. So it’s a place where I’ve never been. And hang on, let me get it, sending me on a whole thing, but yeah, Thomas belt and it’s this really cool, amazing, like super old school.

Guide that he wrote about Nicaragua and it’s just absolutely stuffed to the brim with everything about the place, the people, community like living the [00:28:00] wildlife ideating. It is probably one of my favorites, my, my latest favorite. So a bit of a cheat there. It’s not quite an adventure book, but it’s close.

No, this is no, this is partly why it’s like, so actually someone very close to me bought me this because I saw it in a bookshop in 10 B this like amazing bookshop. That’s just like stacked full of books. Like that’s topple over. It’s absolutely beautiful. And you actually got, he actually got it from me and I’ve been obsessed with it ever since, but no, it’s on the list.

Have you been, I haven’t been done. Okay.

Be one of the, one of the places I hope to go to in the future, but yeah, it’s not right now. Why are adventures important to you? Adventures are important to me because I am [00:29:00] always. I always, I don’t know. I always learn something new. There’s always something surprising on an adventure. I guess it’s something that I like being pushed outside my comfort zone.

Is that a really cliche thing to say, but it is, it’s pretty cliche. But I’ve, I always, yeah, it’s something that’s just always made me quite excited, inspired me and are. I’d say I’d encourage everyone in anyone, whether it’s just like a small adventure in your local patch or. Some are further afield, try and push yourself outside your comfort zone.

Definitely. It’s a really crappy answer. I’m sorry. He’s very good. Because I think, I think everyone who comes on the podcast is very similar in that sort of mindset is you have a goal and then you push yourself and then you’re like, Oh, I could have done that. That was, I’ve done that. And then you sort of think, Oh, okay, I’ll take it a step further and further.

And then once you’ve done that, you’re sort of like, well, how far can I go? [00:30:00] Yeah, I’ve, I’ve always gotten the best stories from my most strange adventures. Funnily enough, my last trip to Kenya mindful and James and I. So he was out as a, is part of my lab. It’s one of the university. He came out with me.

We went out to go see wild dogs. There’s a small population. I’m sure some of you all listeners will know, maybe, you know, about the wildlife population being depleted because of the canine disease. So. Similar population. But we were meeting up with this expert in a Conservancy to go and basically go and track them and see if we can find them.

And we had about an hour left of light. So we have the option to either go back or go and see the wild dogs. And of course it was like, yeah, we’re going to go see, well, dogs have the best encounter with them for about 10 minutes. And then basically the flood, the rains came, we got flooded. We couldn’t get home.

We had to sleep in a random place in the middle of a Conservancy and spent the next day trying to get back on Kenyan roads [00:31:00] and getting broken down the whole time. It was absolutely brilliant. And what did I learn from that? Not much, but Walldogs are brilliant. Well, thanks. A great, the best stories happen when there’s sort of something disastrous happens because you’re sitting there like, Oh my God, you’ll never guess what this happened.

Yeah. So Lizzie, what is your favorite quote? Well just thinking on the spot. No, I think so. I had this quote stuck to my walls, so cheesy, but why not? And the quote was, it was a day like this when Marco polo left for China, what are your plans today is basically just saying. That there is no better day than today.

How about that? But achieved? Yeah, really liked it. People, people listening are always keen to travel and go on an adventure. [00:32:00] What’s the one thing you would recommend to them to on how to become an adventurer or a wildlife expert or biologist. Oh, okay. Different, I guess, different approaches there.

The one thing that I always think people miss when they just go on adventures is perhaps they don’t tap into that. You can be a naturalist and a biologist if you like at the same time. So I would recommend for anyone that, you know, you may be a real lover of. I don’t know, primary rainforest habitat, just because it’s Epic and you love the scenery and you love trees or rainforests, but you know, really take the time to do your research or try and absorb your surroundings as much as you can.

And by doing that, you know, there’s, there’s always lots of wildlife to see and always lots to learn about the environments that you’re in. So that’d be my top tip on how to actually make the most of your adventure is just like, You know, really, really absorb all the, all the information you [00:33:00] can and then about your environment and then to become a biologist.

I think as long as you’re a passionate, dedicated person, I don’t think you actually need to go down the degree route. If you’re not academically inclined and biopsy fine. It may not be for you. But if you’re someone who just loves the outdoors, like spend time. Outside spend time with a pair of binoculars and a, and a notebook and a guide and get to know again, your, your surroundings or, you know, contact organizations that you are passionate about or that you would enjoy working with and try and find ways to get involved to them.

It’s there’s lots of different routes into conservation and or into science. There’s no like typical way don’t get hung up on like having a degree. But if that’s also what you want to do, then, then sure. Go for it. Yeah, that’s my top tip. So research is key. Research is key. And actually what you find is that you enjoy the [00:34:00] moments where you may be less than you may just be in an environment and you hear, you know, I walked through kind city center and I walked through and yeah, you may think, gosh, there’s nothing adventurous about that, but I can hear the Peregrine Falcons, like screeching overhead.

And I’m just like walking through the city center and you’re like, wow, that’s the world’s fastest bird. It’s just gone over my head. And there’s all these people around that have got no idea what they’ve just witnessed. So just, I don’t know, just take that extra bit of time to really make the most of wherever you’re going or how you’re going to get there, or who are you going to be with?

And yeah, you would enjoy it a lot more amazing. And what are you doing now and how can people find you? So for now, I’m doing PhD stuff and I’m trying to actually create some online resources. So I setup a series called earth live lessons. It’s basically 20 minutes of weekly [00:35:00] lives with experts, scientists, filmmakers from around the world.

So you can find that on my YouTube channel at Lizzie daily wildlife TV, otherwise I’m just at Lizzie daily wild and Yeah, I’m posting something wildlife related regularly. So that’s where you can find me if that’s what you want or not. And what was your plans when post COVID once this is all behind us.

Okay. Post COVID, if that’s this year, hopefully you’ve got few Things lined up. I’m currently writing like an a wa a wildlife adventure guide for the UK. So that’s going to come out later in the year. Hopefully, maybe can’t tell you too much, but something in Peru potentially and heading back out to Kenya for some field work.

So. Should things go back to normal. Hopefully not sooner rather than later, but you know, when it’s [00:36:00] like right now, we’ll just see amazing. Well, Lindsay, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Thanks for having me really enjoyed it. And it’s been an absolute pleasure listening to all your stories and yeah.

Go, go check out. Busy daily, wild wildlife. Thank you, Walter. Well, whatever.

EP.015: Sean Conway

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sean conway (Ultra Endurance Athlete)

On today’s podcast, we are talking to Sean Conway, a Zimbabwean ultra-endurance athlete who became the first person to cycle, swim, and run the length of Great Britain from Land’s End to John o’Groats. In 2016 he completed the world’s longest triathlon, a 4,200-mile journey around the coast of Britain. We talk about his journey and how he started in the world of adventure by swimming the length of Great Britain just to get out of the house!! Plus why solo travel is important to him and why he does these adventures alone.

 

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Transcript of our Conversation

Sean Conway

[00:00:00] 998_6789: It’s very rare that I’m having a good time. And if I’m having a good time, it means I’m not pushing hard enough. So yeah, for the most time it was tough, but actually doing stuff in Britain is heartwarming. It restores your faith in humanity, you know, everyone’s so friendly.

Hello. And welcome back to another episode of the modern adventurer podcast coming up. We have the incredible Sean Conway, an ultra endurance athlete who has pursued numerous adventures all over the world from cycling around the world. To a 4,200 mile triathlon around the United Kingdom, as well as a world record cycling across Europe.

I am delighted to introduce Sean Conway to the show. Thank you very much, mate. Thanks for having me [00:01:00] the pleasure. Well, great to have you on. And I mean, the sort of adventures that you have done over, I mean, the years now, counting. Absolutely incredible. How did this sort of love of adventure sort of come about.

I’ve always thought I had an advantage twists sort of side to me, but I, I kind of buried it in my twenties. Not really kind of feeling that it had any purpose or use of my life. I just thought it was a frivolous notion to think adventurously, and it was a kind of a waste of time because it was pretty selfish and, and, you know, there’s more book things to do, like earn money and buy food and, you know, all those sort of things.

So it was always in me. But I never really scratched my adventurous edge until I was 30. Ready. And so in your twenties, because I read that you sold your business for one pound, with the sole purpose of pursuing your passion. [00:02:00] Yeah. So actually you can see it behind me, that frame and a pound dirt behind me there on the wall is a, is the Jersey power note that James Carnegie gave to me when he bought my shares in our company.

And what it’s interesting. So it wasn’t to pursue a passion. I had no, no direction. I knew I wanted to go traveling. I always thought photography was going to be that passport to travel for me. But I’ve fallen out of love with it in my twenties. So I was just thinking outside the box, I just thought, well, how can I go traveling?

I, you know, how, what can I do? That’ll allow me to go traveling. And the only thing I could think of is actually, if I, maybe I broke some sort of record in the world, travel, I get some sponsorship. Maybe that was it. So I thought of, I thought of this, the run, the world cycling record and it was part of the world’s ever around the world bike first, ever around the world, bike race in 2012.

Entered that and then managed to get some funding to [00:03:00] pay for flights and food while I was away. And that sort of set me off on this path. Right. Was that when a whole group of people went round and I think he did it in like 82 days or something. So what the no. Back then. So 2012, the record was at the time 127 days.

Yeah. Just before we started. And most people have kind of tried to do it in sub a hundred days. I got run over, so I was out of the race pretty early on. But my call one that, and I think he did it in 107 days in the end with the new Guinness rules, which mean you can’t stop the clock yet. She did a 90 something, 92 93 days with the old rules where you can stop the clock.

So, yeah. Yeah, it was, it was pretty, pretty tough race, but it was it’s what I needed, you know, I just needed some excitement. I needed to push myself physically and mentally, [00:04:00] and that was pretty pretty in the deep end way to do it, but I’m glad I did it that way. You know? So you got hit by a car and then you were like, right.

I love this. Well, no, I was going to come home. Of course, you know, you have a serious accident with the compression fracture, my spine and stuff. But then I thought. You know, no one gets two opportunities to cycle around the world unless you walk Beaumont show off. And I thought, well, this is my chance.

You know, Y Y let me, I’ve got to carry on and raise money for charity. And that became my new focus. But secretly, you know, the records is what really kind of gets me going. A knife. And so you sort of started pursuing these passions and you, what your idea was very much to look at records and just try and break them.

Well, no. Initially the idea was to go you’re traveling for a year and get someone else to pay for it, you know, by, by way [00:05:00] of sponsorships, through trying to break a record. So that was it. That was finish the round, the world cycle, go home, try to get back into everyday employment, you know, went to the job center, signed on the Dole.

Wait for interviews, just tried everything for like nearly a year. I was just getting no interviews, nothing, you know, bearing in mind, I was 31 years old and I have no air levels and I didn’t go to university. So it was a, it was a tough sell. And, you know, I wouldn’t employ me to be honest. And I had no CV, you know, I photographed school kids, which was my job before I was a school portrait photographer.

So I eventually thought after a year, like, well maybe if I just try and break another record, at least again, me out the house for six months. And when I say house, I was living with my mother in a one bedroom apartment in in Cheltonham. So yeah, so that’s when I thought of swimming the Lake, the Britain just to kind of give me something to do, to be honest.

[00:06:00] Good. And how did that go? Well, the swim was well, I mean, at the end it went well. Cause I finished it, but the whole process of swimming 900 miles up the West coast of Britain, half of it in winter is I can assure you not much fun. But you know, it was the challenge that. I’ll always look back on and realize that’s the one that changed my life, because it just gave me the confidence to go off and pursue other goals.

It gave me opportunities to write books, which I absolutely love, which I probably wouldn’t have done that. I’ve not done that swim. And I wouldn’t have realized the joy you get to publishing your own book, you know? So yeah, I mean, in hindsight I look back now and go, well, actually that was, that was pretty cool.

And so with when that sort of transported you into the sort of world or [00:07:00] career let’s say of adventure what sort of happened after that? Because you then went on to break a world record in your 4,200 mile triathlon. Yeah. So well after the swim Swami, I decided to do the run. The run was to do the first ever length of Britain triathlon, which is just a bit of fun, to be honest, you know, it was nothing serious.

I just wanted to see what it would be like running a thousand miles from John grips back down to land’s end. And yeah, off to that, I really got this bug for. Sort of doing different disciplines. I wasn’t really into, I couldn’t choose basically whether I wanted to do only swimming, only cycling or running.

So I like this idea of doing a long triathlon and it turns out there’s a world record for triathlons and, and it was 3,200 [00:08:00] miles maybe. So I just upped that to 4,200 miles and did it around the coast of Britain. And yeah, that took 80, 85 80. I can’t remember now in the eighties days doing a was a 3,500 mile bike ride, 800 mile run, and then 120 miles swim, which up until a month ago was the longest self-supported some industry.

But yeah, it’s just being broken that record finally accompanied. It took so long. And yeah, so that was, that kinda got me into sort of doing multidisciplined stuff, which I really enjoy. I kind of like the challenge of doing different sports. What were the sort of amazing moments from that trip? Did you find.

To be honest, most of the trips most of the challenges I do are [00:09:00] pretty miserable while I’m doing them. To be honest, this is very, it’s very rare that I’m having a good time. And if I’m having a good time, it means I’m not pushing hard enough. So Yeah. For the most time, it was tough, but actually doing stuff in Britain is heartwarming.

It restores your faith in humanity. You know, everyone’s so friendly. People understand distances when you say, Oh, I’m running from Scarborough to Brighton people go, Whoa, they understand what you mean. And it’s, it really engages with people. It makes the whole journey quite, quite fun and exciting to do stuff.

In a country where people speak the same language as you and understand everything you taught me about, you know, because if I said to you, do you know, at once I cycled from Townsville and Australia to Mount ISER, you’d go what? I mean, I have no idea what that means, you know, whereas when you do stuff in Britain, everyone’s like, wow, that’s cool.

You know, so I really had a good time sharing the journey I’ve done in the UK, you know so I imagine you had a few sort of terrible moments along the way though, by the sounds of it. Cause you [00:10:00] grew your beard to protect you from jellyfish, which that is true. Yeah. That is true. So way back in 2013, when I swam that incompetent, after a couple of weeks of getting stuck, obviously started clean-shaven because that’s what swimmers looked like.

So I just copied them, you know, like, well, you know and then I didn’t shave for a couple of, for a week and then realized when I would. Where I had a bit of stubble. I wasn’t getting stung as much. So I just thought, right, that’s it. I’m going to grow this anti jellyfish protection beard. And that’s kind of, it kind of stuck ever since.

And then I met my wife and she’s, we had this rule from the first day we met, we weren’t allowed to Google each other. And actually we weren’t allowed, we only became Facebook friends after we were married, you know? So we, we, we we’d have no idea about each other’s online lives, which was a nice way to do it, you know?

So anyway, she’s never seen me without a beard ever, not in pictures, not in anything. And she likes the beard. So I’m kind of concerned if I get rid of it. Now it’ll lead to. [00:11:00] Divorce since you have to stay. So what were this sort of moment along the way, which you probably don’t look back in sort of fond memory in terms of what were the sort of lows of that trip did you find?

Oh, so on the triathlon or the swim and the triumph or both? Yeah. I mean, swimming in British waters, even in the summer day in and day out is pretty miserable. You know, all the triathlon I was sleeping or self supported or sleeping on the beach, getting up at 4:00 AM to catch the tide, putting on freezing cold wet suits, you know, that that’s not much fun.

You know, finding places to camp up in Scotland every night, you know, sleeping in drain pipes and. I want slept today in an advertising trailer. You know, those ones, they park on bridges. It’s actually a perfect tent quality for my blanket. You know, those, those are sort of the tough days, but it’s, it’s sort [00:12:00] of the, you know, I’m pretty blanket when I do these records, you know, I’m not looking in smelling the roses.

I’m, I’m head down, you know, it’s physical effort. It’s trying to perform at the highest I can for that sort of distance. You know, this is not. Red line, heart rate stuff. This is plodding along, just keeping a tempo, you know, minimizing your, your rest stops. You know, I’d give myself like 13 minutes to stop and eat food and that sort of thing.

And I’d give myself the same sort of time for when my alarm went in the morning to be on the bike or on the trail a little bit longer to get into my wetsuit everyday. But yeah, it’s just minimizing time off the bike and off your shoes just to try and get these records. So it’s very. You know, very, just grind, grind, grind, grind, you know, cause to do something for 85 days, that’s it takes a lot of sort of mental effort to keep motivated for that long, you know?

Yeah. And so what actually does sort of motivate [00:13:00] you where to keep going when times are sort of tough crossing the finish line that really helps, you know, I find that. Trying to get that record is, is enough of a motivating factor to tell me, to keep going. And also I’m mostly self-supported so, you know, if I’m off it through a record, I might be in the middle of Russia, for example, on my across Europe cycling record.

If I decide to give up, it’s not like I’ve just have a camper van magically whisked me away. Yeah. I’m still stuck in the middle of Russia, you know, so I’ve asked her just counts likely. So that’s kind of. Kind of keeps me going into that end goal. Really. And so you do all the sort of self-supported sailor expeditions.

Why is sailor travel important and why do you like solo travel? Because I’m intolerable to other people. I think I’m [00:14:00] very focused in the goals I have. And unless you align perfectly with those goals, you find me very annoying. Basically. So it’s just easier for everyone if I just go off and do it on my own.

Yeah. And that’s, that’s the main reason. And I, I enjoy my own company. I enjoy the, the, the goals and the challenges involved, that sort of stuff. And it makes the reward for me at the end, you know, all the more better. And even though often when I finished these records, I’m often just by myself, somewhere in the middle of Russia going, Oh, I’ve done it now.

Thanks. Right. And I’ve got to find a flight term somehow. Yeah. I was going to say, when you said crossing the finishing line, because most of these expeditions that, you know, people, when we do it’s very much, there’s no sort of finishing line, it’s sort of, you know, the sort of pub. Or the post office, which is in the middle of nowhere.

And so you sort of crossing, you’re like ha done that. Okay, great. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Now how do I get home? Yeah, yeah, [00:15:00] exactly. And it’s, for me, it’s not about having this big sort of hugging cheering moment with loads of crowds of people. For me, it’s just, I had a goal to break the record. I broke the record.

Brilliant. Now what’s, what’s the next one I can go for, you know, Yeah. So w I imagine when you saw, let’s say Ross actually swim round the whole of the United Kingdom, you must’ve thought poor guy. Yeah. Yeah. I was just like, man, you’re an idiot. Why go for that? That’s such a miserable one. Yeah, no, I was waiting for someone to do that.

So I’m surprised it took so long. It was five or six years, pretty much. Before someone had a crack at that swim. Because it was totally doable. It was totally achievable. You know, just have a bigger support boat start about 30 and than I did. And you had easy, easy break my record. And that’s exactly what he did.

He did those two things. So yeah, he’s a, yeah. And he’s a, he’s a boy. I know. He certainly has. I mean, [00:16:00] he’s enormous. Yeah. And so your sort of plan at the moment with the sort of adventures is to keep pushing yourself or where, where is it sort of taking you? Yeah, that’s interesting. I haven’t really thought it through what the long-term goal in my records are going to be, because obviously at some point I’m physically not going to be able to compete, like in any sport you get older and, and you just, you lose the power and you get injured more and things like that.

Some things you still need to get better at like running ultra running. So I think I’d like to maybe move towards ultra running. I’m turning 40 in may and April. So I’d like to maybe do a bit more running. But I might start just doing more storytelling rather than breaking records. You know, I’m really, I really loved my writing.

I’ve written six, seven, six or seven books now. [00:17:00] And I love that. I I used to be a photographer, so I’m really getting into my filmmaking. So I, I can see myself doing a little bit more filmmaking things and really enjoy that. So yeah, I haven’t really thought it through. I’ve had this big project on the go since 2000 and early 2019.

And it’s obviously all been delayed and postponed now. So that’s my focus, the next big thing, which is top secret, of course. But I think after that I’ll be, you know, early, early, mid forties and I, yeah, we’ll see. We’ll see. I’m very, what adventure has taught me. Is, we were a lot more resilient and resourceful, then, then we will give ourselves credit for.

So I always kind of just figured something will work out, you know, I’ll think of something. And then once I think of it, I’m blinkers and I’ll just go for it. Yeah. So how do you prepare for the sort of expeditions? Is it very much, you have the [00:18:00] idea and you’re like, right. I’m going for it, or is it a sort of.

Long process of the initial idea and then moving it into reality over the space of a couple of years, a bit of a mixture, depending on the rec codes, depending on who else is going for the record. So some records, you know, for example, my across Europe citing where we’ll wreck, what I really needed to do that pretty quickly because other people I knew were going through it and the record is just going to get hotter and hotter and hotter.

So. You know, those are the ones you just quickly kind of try and put together. And in three or four months, really? Well the, that record I failed the first time. So the whole process was, it was about a year. But the feedback certainly putting it off the ground I could do now in yeah. For four months probably.

But some take longer, you know, some take a lot longer to fund and get funding for them. And logistics and things like that. And fitness. You know, some take just [00:19:00] much longer to train for. So they don’t, it all depends. It all depends. I’ve got a long list of records and things I want to do. And, you know, some have probably missed the boat on, cause I’m maybe a little bit old for them now, and I don’t have that speed anymore.

But some of it too young for, so I’m going to wait until I’m a bit older. So it’s kind of nice having, having a range of goals and not wanting to do them. All right. Now, you know, what was the record around Europe? Was it around Europe pool across Europe? So it’s the, there’s two cycling records for Europe, there’s North to South and East to West.

And I was going for the East to West record. So from the edge of Portugal to UFA in Russia, which is on the Ural mountains, which is the bit where Russia becomes Asia from Europe to Asia. There’s a part of the show where we ask the same five questions each week. With the first is on your trips.

What’s the one gadget or item that you always bring? The one thing I take off every [00:20:00] single trip and it’s even on the small trips where I don’t need a lot of tech and a lot of navigation and stuff is a, is my adventure mascot. He’s called the little flying cow. It’s a little toy cow. I got in a chair to shop for one pound back in 2008.

And yeah, he’s been everywhere with me. So we’ll I’ll never go anywhere without the little flying car. And actually I’m currently doing a challenge called the four nine six challenge. Where in January you run one kilometer on day one, two K on day two, three, 10 day three. And so on. If you add that all up, you eventually run 496 Ks and he’s on my backpack for each of those runs as well.

So yeah, the little flying car, check him out on Instagram that Scott, I somehow managed to get that. Tag back in the day. So check them out. Have you got in there with you? I do actually. Yeah. See if I can reach over,

there you go. As I say, he’s on the back of my rucksack for my [00:21:00] runs at the moment. So yeah, there is amazing.

What is your favorite adventure book? Ooh, Shackleton’s story I would say is probably, you know, one of the ones that you just go, Whoa. I mean, just, they had so many things against them. Yeah, I would say any books that document Shackleton’s journey is pretty amazing. Another one I really love is there is a guy called George Mohamad.

He, and his mate decided to try and do land’s end to John O’Groats with no money or nothing. They started with no clothes. They just had their boxer shorts done and lands end. And they, every single day they would offer to wash dishes and pubs for food and the combination. And that eventually got given a scooter that a bicycle.

And yeah, it was, it was really good book. It’s called free country. George mood free country. [00:22:00] Check that one out as well. I think I remember that that was sort of back 10 years ago or so that was quite funny. Why are adventures important to you personally? They give me focus and I’m, I need focus.

I need big long-term goals in my life. Otherwise I get frustrated. And I need variety, which is why I like changing disciplines. So for me, they just give me, give me something to chase. We all need something to chase in life. Super important. Just find anything, chase it. And honestly, the rewards are so good.

Yeah. The sort of idea of, if you’re not, if you don’t have a goal, you’re just treading water. Yeah, exactly. But but goal is. You know, it’s gotta be bigger than the word goal. I think it’s too easy to say, Oh, just have goals and go for them. But like, I like the word shakes. You’ve got to chase something, you know, you’re not just working [00:23:00] towards a goal, you’re chasing it, like really be passionate about it.

Be relentless, you know? Okay. Do you have a favorite quote? I’m going to arrogantly say one of my

Which is adventure in it’s is, is not just it’s the adventure. Isn’t all about climbing mountains and rang oceans adventure in its purest form is simply a way of thinking. And for me, I really resonate with that, you know, just. If you just think more adventurously, it’ll lead to living a more fulfilled life, and that can be just, you know, the foods you buy in the supermarket here, whatever it is, how you get to work each day, you know, if you add the word adventure in there, you know, be more adventurous than then you just let a more fun existence.

I think that’s pretty good. [00:24:00] People listening are always keen to travel and go on sort of these big grand adventures. How does one become an adventurer? Yeah, I don’t think I’m not really an adventurer to be fair. I get cast as one, but actually I’m an option Germans athlete. So if you want to become in the sense of an adventure, so you want to earn money from.

Traveling places. Right. So if you want to become adventure, I guess that’s the goal, right? You, you go do things and you get somehow get paid for it. You basically gotta be a storyteller. I think foremost, if you want to earn money from adventure stuff, you got to do something that’s becomes a good story that people want to invest in.

And either they want it. And when I say invest, they, I mean, they could fund it from a sponsor point of view. They could buy the book about it at the end. So they’re investing something there. They could pay to come and hear you talk. They could download a film, you make about it. [00:25:00] But that’s basically what it boils down to is becoming a good storyteller.

And for me, the records is my angle. You know, you might choose to do history. You might choose to do science. You might choose. To do social social adventures, where you engage more people whatever you might choose just to do mountains, you know, whatever it is, have a story and tell it well, and people will be interested in following it.

Okay. That was good. What are you doing now? And how can people follow you? Right now, as I said earlier, I’m doing a thing called the four nine six challenge, which is, as I said, you run one K up on the 1st of January, two K on the 2nd of January. And so on as we speak it’s 12th of January. So I’m doing 12 K today and it’s really wrapping up.

In fact, it’s the first 12 days is the same mileage as the [00:26:00] last two days nearly. So it’s really. You know, back ends January. So it’s going to be pretty tough that last week, you know? But yeah, but been too, so yeah. Chicken outs on, on Instagram, Sean Conway, adventure on Instagram. And, or check the hashtag when you’re out to your end or the four, nine, six challenge.

That’s Yeah, it’s going to be, it’s going to be tough. I’ve also given myself different challenges within each day. So, you know, like on the ninth day I went and ran a routes that made a picture of a running man. So I went and went to a mountain and did this big long route. And when you looked at it from above, it was a running man today, it’s called a running rights day.

So it’s, I’ve got to run six K and write something. And then I can only turn back home once I’ve written this thing. So I’m going to try and write a poem or something about running. So every day is something different, which kind of makes it a little bit more exciting. Or one day I did litter picking for [00:27:00] example, as well.

So it’s quite a fun challenge actually. And I can do it during walk down from home, which is great. Yeah. Yeah. I have to say some of the photography or the places that you run around are truly spectacular. Oh yeah. Amazing place North Wales. I love North Wales. You know, not only do you have amazing stuff here, you know, you’ve got mountains, you’ve got beaches.

You’re also geographically right in the middle of the UK. I’m not too far into North Wales on near the English border. So getting around, you know, getting to, Scotland’s not the ball ain’t getting to. To call them was easy. You’ve got the peaks just here. You’ve got Snowdonia of course the Lake district’s not too far.

So actually geographically, I absolutely love it, you know? Yeah. It’s what’s cool. How, how do you think how does it sort of compare with your sort of upbringing in Zimbabwe? Well, there’s less lions [00:28:00] around and elephants. So that’s a big difference. It’s copying different, you know, I grew up my, my father’s a rhino conservationists, so I grew up in these big game reserves chasing elephants out the garden and that sort of thing, and living Pretty outdoors life.

It’s warm all year round. It’s, it’s really hot all year round, so it’s very different. But I like the seasons, you know, you like winter, like having a bit of snow once or twice a year, it gets you excited about it. I like, you know, Britain in the summer is amazing. You know, it’s absolutely the best Island in the world to be in, in the summer.

But then I like the winter, I like making my, my lock fire and ghetto mold wine at Christmas and things like that. Cause then in the Southern hemisphere, you know, Christmas is the middle of summer, so it’s a very different, different experience. So yeah, it’s, it’s very different, but I, I do love the UK.

It’s just that the opportunities here are so much, so much better, you know? Yeah. [00:29:00] And I suppose when COVID Ziva, Carina lockdowns finished what’s your big adventure next? Oh, Oh, phone. And I could tell yeah, y’all got a big one coming up. I was meant to, I was meant to be finishing it around about now.

But of course it’s been postponed, so probably be postponed till next year. There’s, that’s all I could talk about. Fortunately, it’s big. It’s the biggest thing I’ve ever done from a time point of view. So, yeah, it’s annoying. Cause I’ve done two, three big training blocks for it and then had to postpone.

So I guess in the month of January and all this four, nine, six challenges is my third big training block which will hopefully be useful for something. Fitness space down the line, but for now it’s just a bit of fun. Yeah. I guess we’ll have to follow you in wait and find out. Yes, you will. [00:30:00] Well, Sean, thank you so much for coming on the show today and it’s been an absolute pleasure listening to your stories.

Well, thanks for having me, man. Yeah, it’s always good to, to share the love and keep adventuring, everyone get out there and stay safe, you know, and we’ll be following your. Adventures or whatever this big grand adventure is in the future. Yeah. Looking forward to it. Thank you so much. So that is it.

Thank you so much for watching. I hope you got something out of it. If you did hit that like button and subscribe, if you haven’t already, and I will see you in the next video. Yeah.

EP.014: Lucy Rivers Bulkeley

LUCY RIVERS BULKELEY (ADVENTURER)

Lucy Rivers Bulkeley is a Britsh Adventurer, having become the first European woman to complete the 4 Desert Grandslam in 2010 (250km self-supported across the Atacama, Gobi, Sahara and Antarctica) She is now attempting the seven summits. On today’s podcast, we talk about the preparation that goes into these big expeditions and about how her story started.

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Transcript of our Conversation

Lucy Rivers Buckeley

[00:00:00] Lucy Rivers Buckeley: I was climbing up a ice fall. It was one of those really could have, you know, so easily avoidable, but also you can’t do anything about it. He and I were trying to left time, so I have a big ice fall and there were two climbers top right. And it was no one fault. It was just a freak accident. He said head.

So I ducked down the helmet, sunglasses, great green jacket. I was looking good. And and it was good. Quiet. And then I still looked up to do something perfect is going to move my top when I right ice ax.

the sort of list of what you’ve done is absolutely incredible over the last, what 10. 1212 years or so. And I suppose probably for people listening the best place is the [00:01:00] sort of start with you and how you sort of got into doing what you’re doing with these adventures. Yeah. Thank you very much. It was a mistake actually.

I was meant to be a one off. In 2008 to do the Sr submarines in six days, it was meant to be a one-off with my sister to raise money, my memory of my father, and made it survived. It, I mean, everyone’s meant everyone, everyone in the race had a sort of rucksack reus and probably like four or five kg max.

And we both had a kitchen sink on it that we had everything we were ready to be there for a month. It needs to be. And we had no idea what we were doing. Complete rookies, but she started didn’t complete it cause I mean, but I did make the extension line and completely loved it and it sort of opened up a can of worms and my sort of competitiveness, stubbornness and adventure streak, and has gone horribly wrong since the marathon desal, bla, was that sort of [00:02:00] the kick and was that sort of, you sort of had the drug of adrenaline and you were like, right.

How could I push myself further? Yeah, completely. And so when you one more in the classic, always dangerous and maybe one more. So I signed up for the Atacama, which is similar format in spring of 2009. Which went, it went a bit wrong. I tore my meniscus on day four and which I don’t recommend to anyone it’s incredibly painful and how many painkillers you’re inhaling.

It doesn’t seem to make any different sorts of Turner. I got to check point strapped up my knee and I was obviously fine motor and painkillers. And they sent another 5k and realized that I sort of had a balloon of a sort of me and it wasn’t, it wasn’t gonna make any better. So I had to wave the white flag.

So I’m not very good at. Not a confusing, something’s not right, but I go back to the article around 2010 and what I was thinking about that planning that now someone told me that no woman had done all four deserts in a year. So obviously another red flag to a bold. And that’s how I came about doing all [00:03:00] 40 a year, which I think in my body didn’t fit.

I didn’t fully appreciate what it would do to my body, the training, the sort of time of what, just, just the combination of a thing. And it was an amazing experience. Wouldn’t change it for the world, but definitely. Wouldn’t be recommending that many.

Good. And so your time in the Atacama, I, I suppose in terms of training for the sort of races, how did you go about it? Yeah, a lot of bit yoga because you know, being based in the, based in the UK, it’s not very easy to train for a heat of a desert. So it was, it was not a chamber in London, combination of that and bit from yoga.

Which is not your sort of average Monday spin class. But it did help. And I think once Ascot was the first, before that year and weirdly once you’re at a certain level of fitness or that you, that it was cases taking over. So I was never going to win these races. It was all about survival, [00:04:00] not sort of coming on the page, but I want to keep that year.

And this is sort of much, much time in 2010. It was when there was a big earthquake in Santiago. So we to get to some Petra, we had to go over Argentina and I met with another sort of team of British guys, and we had to do a road trip across the Andes from Saul to just Patrick’s get us the fix and start line.

So yeah, it was meant to submit, to write these things, very calm crap and everything, and actually just. It was amazing store new entry, which was great fun, but not quite the sort of prep we were inventing pre pre and ultra race. Wow. And so you had sort of done, done the F so when did you, so you completed all of them within the year?

Yes, it was March, June, September, October, sorry, November. So it was of nine months, basically of 2010 was. But nine months total of the four races. But it was amazing, you know, you see different places and you. It’s the sort of the whole experience of it and sort of [00:05:00] liberal apples have China in particularly like is going there at the time.

And then, you know, Ruchi Apple wouldn’t, they’re like why you hate, but you see all the paperwork as, you know what it was like the road trip to the us karma heading back, that was quite surreal, sort of Marin. I was about to see three 60 sound genes for the seven days, which is not great for the mental thing.

And then, then the axon as a common law, which was sending to the Drake passive. So it was complete a year of extremes, but I probably should have stopped them. And so you, but you continued on, she continue on. I I’ve always loved mountains but never been slightly obsessed by it. Never thought I’d be able to climb it or be able to climb any sort of high altitude lungs.

Some of us are meant to be out there. And I was doing a talk at the RGS for a chat, an army charity evening. And I hopped on stage and I was the only female speaker that I hopped decision the broken leg, which is not the best look, you know, when you’re trying to be out there in a little black dress. And, and the guy [00:06:00] speaking before me had just come back from Everest.

And so obviously, you know, one story going to another, and then I got talking to him after that evening. And I, well, I knew if, if I wanted to climb Everest, how would I go about it? Cause obviously I wasn’t able to be technical at that stage. I know, you know, you have a rezone chair, critics, things, not tech, but I think you still need to know what you’re doing.

And and so he put me on the track of, and that’s when the seven stocks seven summit started. When you say he put you on track, how, how does, how does one start to climb Everest in terms of the planning, the logistics that go through it? Yeah, no, exactly. Sorry. Back on track. So it makes it sound so easy.

I he recommended, I speak, this guy could walk past me who actually we met him. We sort of arranged to meet up because he’s based in Canada and he’s a British doctor guide. And he’s based in Canada with his French wife [00:07:00] and we mess up actually remember it was the London 20 to 20, 20 to 2012. You have to have that.

Okay. London, 2012 Olympics. And we met. Yeah. And the pot fan just excused it, he was doing the exhibition that winter and wants to meet me what I was like, see whether my character would work. So he had a. Trip going mean commas, three people in the mountains on the kind of place to have sort of, you can’t have any gaze up there.

You don’t have arrogance luckily. And I’m a lighthouse and thought it was like talking to an old friend. It was brilliant. We went to, we decided that, you know, you know, he could help me with all the times new certificate he’d been on Everest. He was, had an exhibition going in a couple of years, times there was a sort of stepping stone, which we could work out.

So I went to, I can talk, I can cocky with him that winter was that, I mean, in terms of preparing your body for mountain climbing, had you ever done it before? I I’ve done some, some small things, but never sort of done anything. [00:08:00] Ridiculous. I’ve been in Sutent for days on end nights on end, but never sort of, you know, slightly different when you’re sort of too many lads.

But now I was having pack with down and not just a t-shirt and shorts, but I absolutely loved it. Didn’t have a headache. I was, you know, there’s no outs, you sickness. None of the suicides. It was have look out for. We had we were very lucky we had, I think it helped we had a good trip. There was no sort of, there weren’t too many dramas we had.

Okay. Ish weather. There was nothing. So the dress, so I think that sort of helped with most of the first big. You know, four weeks in a tent, you know, it helps. And I absolutely loved it except for the summit morning, whatever. Obviously you can see, everyone’s always talking about, you can see the Pacific because you’ve so far, honestly, I could bring the Brecon beacons.

My summit is just basically one big tile. And my family even said that you show all about it, like a promise off of that photo. It was an amazing experience. [00:09:00] Yeah. I, I I’m no quite on the same level, but there’s a. Peak in Sri Lanka where it’s meant to be all sort of quite Holy and, you know, Adam and Eve sort of made love there or something.

Some and Muhammad put his foot print in the, a stone or something. Anyway, it’s all quite religious and everything. And apparently you climb up at night for four or five hours and it’s quite sort of. As you say difficult not in your scale, but, and anyway, when we go to the top cloud freezing cold, just like, and then you had to walk all the way down and you’re like, that was great.

Oh, no, that’s what say that you have all these stories and how amazing it is and then stuff you’re like, and in terms of the sort of expeditions like that one. What are the sort of amazing moments that you have that sort of keeps you motivated to go on the next one? I think it’s, it’s, [00:10:00] it’s, it’s amazing what your body can do, whether it’s, you know, survival, it can survive on so little, you know, we’re hungry at work or you’re having a bad day, Monday or Tuesday.

You had a big weekend, you think go starving at lunchtime. Don’t raid the French West, actually. What your body can do on small reserves is incredible. And I always enjoy pushing myself to see how far also I stopped myself in the mountains. And it’s quite amazing what we can do. And also waking up about the clouds and knowing you’ve got back using your events, or when you’re in a plane looking at, and I got to this level using my feet and I just love them.

It’s also your cut off from the, from what the world. With the Combs, he everyday some emails and then social media, which is all very well, but it’s also quite good to step back and zoom out. No, I agree. And say you just sort of moved onto there and see your attempt in Everest. That was in 2014. Yes. [00:11:00] So I went out with great guy and we had good tea.

We had a really good team and we’ll have a little pond together and shine about couple months before, you know, And you, you need to know what your teammates and like, you know, if I get quiet, I wanted to get, you know, I need a chocolate bar very quickly and I don’t get quiet, easy to check I’m. Okay.

Whereas, you know, I know a guy who sort of starts talking, not us. That’s not very happy to know each other’s quirks. So if something does go help me move me, you know, that’s good. Stay, come back. And we were there in 2014. Sadly, we had the ice that first morning of the retention when the surgeon came off and killed 18 sharp, which was absolutely horrific.

And in case of sliding doors. Cause when a couple hours later, we might’ve been, might’ve been in the high school as well. And we went and we had our harnesses on, we were heading to the mess temper quick. Tonya now as, and when you have a radio message saying hotel types and you just think you never envisage how Fonda is using up extra copies to toast and you keep [00:12:00] eating on the mountain.

We’ll be, we’ll be heading off in a couple of minutes. Develops into the disaster. We know there’s now. It was very surreal being at base count where it was all unfolding. Because I said, well, because the doctor said he was spread strength cause he knew it. He was helping rescue people. His wife was a cardiologist, so she was advising heavy pods to capacity.

I’m thinking of CATIA stains that whenever I was being rescued or. We all, and you also in a weird bubble when you’re on an expedition or a mountain, you are in a site who know people at home who adore you and love you, but you forget, you have to take some wallets in them, but actually bring them up.

Hey, about this quite quick, the news. Feudal bat flies very quickly. Doesn’t it? And so we will have to make sprinkles, Hey, want to stop and go back to sleep three quarter hours ahead of just remember the string. Who’ll give us even goodness. We did do that [00:13:00] because obviously it’s Easter Monday, final quarter.

There was no the news. And then you can just went my wife and also one of my families wake up domestic. not to be managed to get a message saying. You’re okay. So we’ve done. We’ve actually had four expeditions and some expeditions wants to continue, but it was sort of Suetand because what is tenant?

Technically what’s current. Just not, it’s not, it wasn’t very different, but it’s the whole mountain, right? There’s nothing new. Yes. 2015. And I was on a final training time in Chamonix with a guide friend over there. And I got caught a nice avalanche, which I’ll send you a photo. I’ve got a small sky hat.

It’s disgusting. Also, they would just say, look at it when you B’s. And, and and I was cleaning up a nice school. It was one of those really could happen, you know, so easy to voidable, but also you can’t do anything about it. high school and there were two, John is top, right? And it was no one [00:14:00] sold. It was just a freak accident.

He leaves his head. So I ducked down the helmet, sunglasses still great green jacket. I was looking good and, and it was quiet. And then I sort of looked up to do something perfect is going to be my ice ax and just a notes out. The notice freaky bit of ice came down. What to me, and I just thought it was nothing you going to get hit in the head.

The momentary days last week around Barnes and YC, otherwise Sachs were in the rules. I wasn’t going anywhere. And so I ended up down my , my bright green jacket is no longer green. And I was like, Hmm, I think I might have to go so bad. Nothing because I was surrounded by ice and snow. I could get on hold, compress it really quick.

It’s helped the scar, but I am. Smashed my cheekbone, couldn’t see on my eyes for three weeks. And that was when my 2015 Everest expeditions cooled off, which actually is assigned. It was named again because Nicole had the earthquake and my team was stuck at camp long. So yeah, it was meant to be in a, in a very weird way.

Good. That’s [00:15:00] sort of incredible. So you had, you had done 2004, which was sort of a disaster then. So 2014, that’s the one. So in 2014 you had that sort of setback and then was it 2016 when you made the second attempt? No. 2015 was when I smashed my face was meant to try and guide, and then I had to cancel because of my very cheap rent and all, I couldn’t see out him for well I was carrying a sort of its motives, you know, having to pack to life a lot less than me.

And so then we decided that, that she. Take a step back is actually it’s. So it’s such a big, extra Japan, emotionally, physically, mentally, everything in the mountains. It’s time to have a break, have a break go to so then I went to deny it in 2017. And ASCA which was stunning and based incredible mountain.

He’s never been a high recommended, most beautiful mountain [00:16:00] range and also drugs. And it’s very old school kind of your drops in the middle of nowhere by this little thing at base camp just sounds very ground, but isn’t it. You just maybe two or three times as nothing else. And then, and you’ve got your rucksack and sledding.

There’s no room supply, whatever you need for three, four weeks in your license on your back, or maybe. Out back and we loved it and we got to high camp. We had great rotations up and down and we ought to high camp whiteout, nothing other guys Gordon’s fans. So we descended, but luckily the rest of my team wants to send off that.

And Todd, we would have extracts from my account, but that was that they were heading home. But a guide coming up I’ve kind of before somewhere else. So I I jumped onto his team, made sure I had enough supplies and they went back up and we had in the most useful, clear summit day, four days later, everything aligned.

It was amazing. And after that, having another good experience and a big mountain, is that right? [00:17:00] We can get ready to get back to Everest. He attempted to fall again. Third time. Lucky, definitely lucky. Yes.

Easter 2018. Having, which is always, you know, good bit about nonsense, great funds eating kind of produce the fat for muscle up. So it was a very, very greedy Easter and then threw off to South of that. Yeah. I was saying to just on the team ups in 2018, which is very lucky. Good. And how was that? How was the climb?

It was, it was amazing. It’s everything I’d read about thoughts, bouts. Some days with Wes you know, you just, your body definitely shouldn’t be out that however, fat, how strong you are physically and mentally your body really doesn’t like being above 8,000 meters. And I take my hat. I was on oxygen and I take my hat off to anybody who doesn’t.

I think if you do it without oxygen, you are a full-time [00:18:00] athlete. You have to a subject, different extreme of training. But even with my. I could definitely it wasn’t shutting down. I was very lucky. I didn’t have any injuries, but you can definitely to you shouldn’t be out there. When your folks tonight, my buddies for first on count four and high campus, 8,000 and just heading up to a summit, hadn’t had any problems the whole way out.

No headaches, Noosa, calm and breathing. Inhaling sweet or Pringles or some really nutritious West night, then what we eat on the mountains and that kind of thing. Or Capus was something really extravagant like that. And it sort of started dry retching just below the balcony and sort of, that’s not what was happening.

Luckily, I was with this amazing guy called Assange, whose brother was with my teammates about how far ahead of me, you know, there, we all knew each other at all times a certain force [00:19:00] that was given to my pulse. Okay. My eyesight was all good. It’s all my stats was sharing. Normal for that, that altitude, that height.

And so I then started worrying that it might be assigned my body shutting down in a different way. And I had tried promising everyone. I said goodbye to, but I would push myself extreme, but I would definitely, my aim was to come home and you sort of, and your mind starts, you’re shattered your 10 o’clock, 11 o’clock at night.

You’re in a zone. You shouldn’t be in your mind, starts playing tricks with you. We luckily had everyone on the radio. I think they did two base cabins and all the basics. And we had somewhere to camp to nose, checked everything. And then luckily my teammate came on the radio about half an hour, which I won’t repeat on here.

So it’d give me abuse. I’m winding me up and I bet back, and you can hear him giggling on the radio and you’re like to, and she’s absolutely fine. So we knew it was just literally my body going through a bad patch and nothing worse. So that was. That was quite a sort of scary moment, which you [00:20:00] can’t do it into path.

Well, let me go to the balcony and all I will say is I thank goodness you climbed from the dock because between the balcony of the South summit is seeing the narrow, you’ve got drops by the side and no photos don’t do justice. It’s just incredible. And my one regret, I go to photos, the sunrise, which you could see the cover the earth, and I wish I’d taken a video of it.

Would it be an amazing, but you, you are fixated on that little dot of orange drawer, right? For quite a few hours, knowing it’s going to bring some shine and will that doesn’t seem to move in as fast as you’d like it to be, but it was everything I wanted it to be. I’m more, but I was knocking. Did you have any issues with kraut?

No, we were very lucky. I was there in 2018, the photos and the crest and 2019 was horrific. There’s no, that famous painting again. We, I think we were very lucky combination of them, less people climbing, not yet for whatever reason. Also we had a very [00:21:00] long way, the window that was 10, 12 days of weather.

So all the big teams had the Johns sprout. They weren’t so rushing without worrying about. And I think not what went wrong. It turns 19 was all this. We had like five, six days, which every single team, there’s a little saver there as a Western mechanism. I think that’s what caused it. We had no crowds. We did change a summit attempt five nights.

We end it because there was. Was the year at Mendelson was that then thinking about that, we might’ve had a bad storm. The storm he was causing, it was the Sunday night, Monday morning. So no one went to summit to the Monday night. So you have on the Tuesday night going to some extra, when we were gang out there, you have sort of the two nights and one which, which my been fed up and you’ve seen photos and it was beautiful morning, but there were about 134 people up there.

We made a decision, which at the time I felt like it was such a life [00:22:00] cycle, defining decision. Three of us made that, you know, because you know, you think you’ve got the weather, right? You sit, you’ve got a surprise, but actually 24 hours later, we learned our tent was hearing everyone. My team had actually left and came back for five minutes later, which I’m so glad he did some good and for a night and the phone that we were in credibly, lucky, everything was the side.

Put my boarding up in the home now, mobile. And there was six of us. My, I reached some of those six was up there and shooting myself into saying another person I knew. And then I was out there 45 minutes. And you can’t find them how far you can see that’s, what’s so extraordinary about their thoughts.

And then for the last 10 minutes, I was, it was just my son and assignments all over the world because see people going down by size, coming up by size for 10 minutes, just hanging out.

God. Wow. That sounds incredible. It was, it was amazing. There were definitely some tears like that. And also I had my, my one girly moment of the whole two street when my hair [00:23:00] escaped by wooly hats and the freeze. And I touched on Chromebook in my hand. I was like,

it wasn’t amazing. 45 minutes. And so what I mean. Unbelievable. I mean, are you, you must have felt so lucky seeing those pictures in 2019 and just being like, thank God, thank God. You know, I didn’t have to witness that. Do you know what? I felt sick looking at it because I know I know how hard it is up there.

I know how colorism is. I know how tough, how Taj while your body sort of were running on January, that stage between the South summit and the summit Henry step. You, you hear the horror stories, people read the books and seen the films of the disasters and the month in 96 and things like that. And then starting to see it in 2019 when I’ve been so lucky the year before.

And actually, I think you’ve one of your previous guests was Dewey Stewart and I messaged Judy about, and he was like, how luck the both were the years we were there. [00:24:00] We didn’t have the crowds. I know I was incredibly lucky, but actually ISO things up there. I don’t particularly want to see ever again, but that was on a good year.

So it doesn’t that thinking about, you know, what you would expend itself, then they must’ve increase and the books would be running out. It just, it just, and you also can’t get round people. If someone is to start as a crowd, even if you decide to turn around. On that Ridge was not even originally. You probably can’t go either way.

You’d be stuck and that’s yeah, it might be focusing God. And so you’ve now done. Six of the summits. Was that Everest climb? That was the sixth one. Yes. I kept the sick. There was people would make my thoughts, but maybe keeping the seventh is the last one, but I didn’t want to make a decision up high. That I probably shouldn’t make cake.

If it was the last one, you you’d just hope I was making the right decision for the right reasons. So the final one is going to be Mount [00:25:00] Vinson and on top SCA plan and hope, hope for next year, but it depends on anything in the world travels and how it opens out. It’s closed down that moment. I mostly keep it that way.

So that will be the final climb. The seven summits, hopefully fingers crossed. It’s quite remarkable that from going on your first desert adventure in the Sahara doing the marathon, the sub sea suddenly what, 10 years later. Yeah. Yeah. It was 10 years of extremes, but I, yeah, 10 year, it was 10 years, but I think, yeah, it was, it was, it was never planned.

It was never, as I said, I think it’s very lucky. The opportunities came around and I, and I’m very, you know, I can’t wait to.

[00:26:00] If everything goes according to plan and how in terms of sort of funding. Cause I know when I spoke with Jody, we sort of bought up funding for funding for let’s say Antarctica and climbing mountains. And how, how do you go about it? Yeah, it’s great comment for sponsorship. Isn’t it.

There was a couple of the sponsors you came on board for Denali. And Alaska in 2017, who couple came off the one-offs because they didn’t have a time to Alaska or America or propulsion company, but as a couple of years stayed on forever as you are Connie staying for Vincent as well, which is great.

Obviously then I ended up not the whole thing ends. We start talking to people. And what I was thinking about sounds approachable. The summer that obviously came ahead. It’s not really the email you want to send, like, hi, Hy-Ko Health’s good blank, Jack. So we’ll [00:27:00] start again in the spring. And I think the years of having one big sponsorship, well, the two thousands, I think they will have one big company to the sponsor, which.

I think those days are long gone. It’s it’s not small sponsors and then there’s the toolbox and essentially that’s different. So I think that’ll keep me entertained next, next spring and summer, I think. Yeah. I sort of think I’m good. If you think about sort of how accessible these sort of big adventures have become over the last 20 years, you know, if someone had said 20 years ago, I’m going to climb Everest, it was like, Whoa, you know, How come you’re the only one in the world that even heard of it was trying to attempt to lose now, you know, it’s, I think it’s quite lots of people doing everything and jumping off the sofa and actually pushing themselves.

But I also, from the sponsorships Shango

[00:28:00] yeah, there’s a lot of noise. The masses, but also I think, you know, the time we’re in. Extraordinary. And I think that’s everything combined will be quite tricky. And I think people are still keen to be involved, but it’s in a different angle that I’ve probably asked. You have spies who wants to sort of two big ones just sort of mindset that you have when you go into these adventures.

Because as I’ve sort of spoken on the podcast quite a bit, it’s this sort of mentality to endure a lot where others might quit, where. What’s in the sort of, back of your mind pushing you forward? I think I probably have a site in a stubborn streak, which I’ve discovered. I think initially when I first started was raising money raising money was, was basically my 100% my goal, my main reasons.

That’s still [00:29:00] that I still, you know, not so small things, but ever since of commitment. And again, Vince in the final one from them. And so that’s a small driving force, but also I, if you were in a situation, lucky enough to get the sponsorship and beginning to have a great team, I think I’m very lucky.

I’m very lucky to be able to do that. Am I lucky that my body is able to enjoy what I’m pushing it through? If that makes sense. It just sort of, I, I think my stubbornness, my. I just, I just loved the adventure. I love not knowing what’s next. You know, you wake up outside in a tent, whether you’re in a desert or, you know, you might have a sound store.

You want to have a snow storm, you might have, you know, just, it’s just, it’s the not knowing where so much in life was.

Yeah. And I mean, in terms of your day-to-day life, how, how does it sort of compare sort of completely different? Exactly.

[00:30:00] But I think, but I think it makes me. That I’m better at sort of everyday life because of the extremes I’ve seen and witnessed and had done. I’m probably less sort of not tolerant. That’s the wrong word, but I think I’m the small things. Don’t bother me as much as they used to. And you’re starting to track down the silvers and competing costing you.

But there are, you know, I think my day-to-day life, you know, you’re in a meeting or everyday actually it’s not, it’s not something you don’t panic, you know, it doesn’t upset. When I’m out in Phoenix, you see things in a mountain rule on the bench of this fall less on Everest. I was lucky we had an amazing summit morning to send thing and someone died at count three, an hour ahead of me.

And that was horrific to see. And that was, you know, some point of view, quite good, starting to face me to realize I still have three and a half miles to seven to the relative safety of base account, but also. [00:31:00] You know, someone split second decision has gone horribly wrong, but it’s something I shouldn’t see.

And you don’t want to see if something goes wrong in everyday life. Everything’s running. Do you feel that these adventures are almost like a drug now whereby you’re pushing yourself a bit further each time? No, I think, I think it’s it’s. I think it is. It’s not addictive. It’s not sort of. I mean after the addictions, I say, this is what I made is not as safe for addiction.

I think it is. I think it’s. So, you know, you go, you there’s three comes in there unless you want to visit you ticked off to smell the full companies. Then they go back on your travel. And I think, yeah, I, you know, I still got for my seventh mountain, probably not. I think, I think it is however, the big ones, smaller ventures, mini eventual, micro that job in the Brecon beacons or [00:32:00] Scotland or Cornwall, but also you could do.

I’ve gotten, I kind of saw somebody like just everything’s one or two, but I think in a good way, very good way. Oh yeah, massively. I mean, this, this is sort of how I got into it was very much, I sort of had the idea and I think what I’m finding out by speaking to people on the podcast is it sort of starts with.

Ugh, a 10 K men, half marathon, and then a ultra marathon. And then from there, you sort of, you just say, ah, I did that now, how far? And you just keep sort of nibbling away pushing yourself and it sort of, it also, when you live life slightly on the edge, the sort of monotony of day-to-day life becomes quite.

Well, not boring, but it does. You come by takes quite long. [00:33:00] You probably find that you come back from a big trip. It takes quite a, it takes me quite a while to get back into the normal web life. And sort of, as you say, the monotony of life, isn’t it. And one of my favorite clips on a movie was, have you seen the film hurt locker?

It’s quite an old film, but it was about this guy who diffuses bombs and he sort of out in Afghanistan or Iraq diffusing bombs. And then he goes well, after his six month tour, he comes back and then there’s just a clip of him in a supermarket looking at 26 different brands of cereal. It’s just complete, extreme ways.

You’re lucky to find a sort of a non achiever Pringles of during date. Yeah, exactly. And then, but when you’re on these sort of trips in, as I’ve spoken before on the podcast, it’s very much those small luck, small things, which in now, you know, me living in London is very much. Sounds disgusting. But at the [00:34:00] time, you know, the idea of sleeping in a public loo, let’s say, which has running water and.

Electricity was a complete luxury to me, but now I wouldn’t dream of doing it, but I’m sure once I came back into adventure sort of mood, I’ll be like, Oh my God, this isn’t right. Completely. It might’ve had running hot water like panic when you were having your day-to-day normal life. Whereas actually.

You know, on a mountain, you know, you’re not, you know, you’ve got a ball, the ball, it’s just, it’s just, it, it just puts out. I think it was everyone’s perspective. Never. And I think, you know, I think, I think more people should be able to do it, whether a small one or it doesn’t have to be, as you say, everyday life into perspective.

I’ve certainly what’s the word become less interested in sort of small, pointless things. Well, I think, you know, 10 years ago when you’re sort of a [00:35:00] young adult or a late teen, those things really, really important, but you sort of get to . No,

it’s so true. It’s so true. Why will I get a ride? Was it hurt? Locker up? Write that down. Yeah, it’s just that, it’s a very good film. I think it won an Oscar, but yeah, it was just that clip. I remember so well with him just going from one extreme to another and you’re just like, Whoa. Yeah. I remember actually from some sort of Everest back to London was six days.

I’m Emma hanky. And it sort of actually probably slept when I go back to London and it takes a couple of days, but he still thinks it’s sort of inhaling every meal, eating and drinks expenses, dreading what you’re gonna ask it to do next. And then obviously you’ve gone from two months of choosing when I had dolled up to use the sat phone or communicate with someone who was a blog or social media [00:36:00] post to suddenly having, you know, 20, 20 or 2018 at the time of technology was pinging in every direction.

It was quite a sort of.

No. And so there’s a part of the show, which we are the same five questions to each guest. And so the first one is on your trips and expeditions, whether climbing Mount Everest, or running across a desert, what’s the one bizarre thing that you crave or miss from home. I was thinking about this and my initial reaction.

My niece, Michelle, it says probably sounds awful.

Yeah, I don’t smoke. I don’t drink coffee. And I think, I think, you know, just because on the next question is, you know, it’s electrolytes and waters and you’re a bit of sort of. [00:37:00] Juice drink. So I think I probably crave I’m really coast. Not, not Daniel. Every source here we get back off the rotational assistant counts or new attendant, really cold, cold, dark, nutritious Westmont.

Very nice. What about your favorite adventure book? Oh, there’s so many, I’ve got a bookshelf, which is just one of those sort of quite doesn’t help the addiction does it always once I had the first one I read was Robin Knox Johnson’s book, when he said around the sixties. Well, the Maya, he was cool.

He was the first person who was sailing around the world, sailing and meet six is which. You know, now we’re in 2020, it’s mind boggling what he achieved, that massive era. And I know I’m not a

So I think that’s in his era was even more amazing than when, when you wrote the book, what is your favorite [00:38:00] adventure book? I asked, Ooh, I was thinking about this. There are too many, I love it. And I have a bookshelf for this starting books. I need inspirations, quite a lot of people to draw on, but I think one of the first sort of upon is it’s just extreme.

And amazing ideas with Robin Knox Johnson, myself. I think it was what’s it called? Well, the Miami. And it was what was the late sixties was the first person to say no wrestled on the world, which I think in that era, it was even more mind-boggling than it is now. It’s absolutely phenomenal. And way ahead of his time, I could think of nothing worse, but I think it was amazing.

Did you have an inspirational figure growing up?

Hopefully everyone always says this. I think Renner finds was again, like. So incredibly sort of forward thinking when as adventures I’ve luckily covered my, my fingers. I don’t have to cut into my note, but I think [00:39:00] what he’s achieved over his lifetime is just mind-boggling. And I’ve heard him a couple of times speak connect.

She, luckily I was very lucky to overlap with in Alaska and and the Americans and Alaska were quite sort of they’re very sort of. Not nondescript. They were very sub laws about who am I going to fund a Brit? I was like, Oh, how exciting? Who was not many of us? It’s a small world. Isn’t it

real? I was like, I was like vinyl. And they’re like, yeah, that’s him. I was like, okay, where exactly is he on this mountain? Because he was, he’d played in a couple of days of Alaska. So I was very excited about it and he was doing it very late in the radar trip and he had full British doctors, so know, and quite sad about some parts doctors being a day ahead of the automatics and as well.

And sadly, he had to fly out Tuesday to the bad back. So I actually overlapped with him and talking to for a day of chats and we had lunch, which was unbelievable. He needs even [00:40:00] that as talk to in real life. Then when you hear him in a talk or, you know, we use books. Wow, you are lucky. Did you ha do you have a favorite quote or motivational quote?

There are some which, which drive me up supporting you see, come up there. You know they been, I think my day went by 10, who wrote it eventually may harm me, but Nazi will kill you, which I think that’s what we were saying earlier, you know, have a big or smaller ventures. Just get out of your sort of normal day-to-day wherever you’re based in the world could have your day to day regime, because it’s so much better for you.

Even if it’s a half an hour, a day and night, it doesn’t have to be two months in a tent. Just, I think I need to find out who is my favorite one. Amazing. That’s a good one. I have heard it. And people listening are always keen to go on these adventures. What’s the [00:41:00] one thing that you would recommend them to get started?

Talk to as many people as you can. You know, we’re such, everyone said, we’re so lucky to get a bunch of the coming years ago. It was just, it was sort of the old person here. And that was not me. So many people are doing it. Whether it’s an adventure or a big adventure, there’s always someone you can contact, whether it’s social media, email website.

New friend, her friend book, you know, this there’s so much knowledge out there. And I think the more you can talk about it, the more you can brainstorm, you can have an idea. And it gives you advice, which advice from someone else’s far, far better than reading a book or looking it up online, I think. And then.

And, and when he’s been there, I would love, love talking about it. I’ve spent here at that time and Kelly and things like that, or lumber or something, or, you know, I probably told people in the climbing side of things, I’ll tell you now, but it’s just, I think talk to as many people as you can. It doesn’t matter how big or small your ideas Homesite go for it back yourself, [00:42:00] mentally and physical.

And then you do, if you didn’t do it, Yeah. And what are you doing now and how can people follow your journey? What I’m doing now is trying to get that to full thickness also to really lock down the tire. At the time he used to come back out and start driving. You’re supposed to feel I I’m going to stop preparing and planning my final climate to be it’s the non-toxic.

And the best way is by my website dot com or Twitter, which is UCR Reese folks. Amazing and say, Mount Vinson is the next one. And what you’re hoping to do that in 2021. Yeah, I would love to, to season down Maris to end of November, beginning of January. So I found the Christmas this year in skip next year,

that will be patterned depending on [00:43:00] fitness team or all the usuals. But that, that would be the, that would be the ideal. Amazing. Well, hopefully yeah, hopefully we can follow your journey. When that happens. Thank you very much. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. It’s been nasty pleasure listening to your stories.

Thank you very much. No, it was great. Thank you.

EP.013: Jenny Wordsworth

JENNY WORDSWORTH (POLAR EXPLORER)

Jenny Wordsworth is a British ultra-endurance athlete and lawyer. Recently she skied 700 miles solo, unsupported from the coastline of Antarctica to the South Pole. On this week’s podcast, we talk about that expedition as how her first failure in 2018 in the South Pole spurred her on with such determination to complete the expedition even with Polar thigh. This severe injury-ravaged her leg.

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Transcript of our Conversation

Jenny Wordsworth

[00:00:00] Jenny Wordsworth : And she explained that that was my, I was, so I told my brain that, that we were going to the South ball. So my mind just, just making stuff up. So my mind to me that is scabbing and it’s getting better. And that’s absolute nonsense. Like if you look at the pictures clearly, not that and I, I was, I was just getting there no matter what

You, you had had your first ex expedition to the South pole which hadn’t gone to plan you’d got back and your determination to go out for the second attempt was what? Nine months? Eight months? Yeah. Eight months away. I, I knew on the plane [00:01:00] home that I was going back. I wanted to wait a couple of months before making the decision because I was worried.

It was just tied up in feeling like such a failure. Like I remember even in the hospital, my phone was on airplane mode in London. I didn’t want to deal with anyone. I wasn’t ready to speak to anyone just yet. I thought I’ll be safe reading the Metro paper and I opened the Metro paper and there’s a second page is a picture of me and it says.

London lawyer in the size pool failure, I was like, Oh, get rid of that. I wanted it to make sure my, my, my wife going back was, you know, the same as it had been the first time or maybe even better. And then also it’s quite a big decision to go back all that money together again. And I also think for me, it was a joint decision with Matt and I Because it could be quite a selfish undertaking doing expeditions like this, like [00:02:00] your whole life for the next nine months, again, would be about me.

And I talked to her there’s interviews to do there’s press stuff to do there’s filming for a documentary to do. And every free time we all the free time we have together is, is, is focused on me and my training. So then weekends are, you know, where are we going in the leaks this weekend so that I can train.

And he’s never once or twice fully supported it. Cause a lot of similar things themselves it’s still is not something to be taken advantage of. I don’t think I thought it was a lot to ask. And Matt was like, yeah, sure. So pick a deal after all. And then the other, yeah, fact I’d say, do it kind of was I promised work.

I promised the board of the company that I worked, that I would So my first trip to Antarctica was the last major expedition I’d be doing and major in terms of the amount of time I needed off work, which was about eight, eight weeks. And I said, after that, you know, all everything I do will be in normal annual leave.

There’ll be nothing mental. Don’t worry. That was [00:03:00] my like verbal promise. And so yeah, asking for that time off again was a bit awkward. So I was just keeping it under wraps for a little while, until I knew it was definitely happening. I had had my thyroid removed in February before I could do any training, I had a very very overactive thyroid took a while to be diagnosed, failed it so that I have to be taken night.

And as soon as that was done, I got back into training. Got a new coaching team together, an amazing coach in the us. Mike McCastle and then one here in London. . And there’s such incredible coaches. They’re never, ever going to get rid of me and I, and yeah, the training was a dream. It was just such a great time.

I’ve never felt as strong as I did. And it was a really great lead up to leaving again. For the aim was another world record attempt, but I think what I liked. That changed for me between the first attempt. And the second attempt was the first one. I [00:04:00] think I said, I was hell bent on the world record.

Nothing else would even interest me. And I remember. Martin family saying to me, before I went, you should maybe have that as a secondary goal. Like, you know, there’s so many, so many things I have to go right for you together record. I know that it doesn’t matter. My, you know, super optimistic, this is going to happen.

Let’s go, let’s go. Let’s go. And that year I actually spent a lot of time reframing and the primary goal was just to make the South pole. And the second goal would be to get, get the record. And for me to see that and actually mean it. It was a huge win for me. And I think I think it’s made me a better person.

Actually. I’m still very, very competitive. But it was nice to actually feel that if I just made the poll, I’d be genuinely happy with that. And I’ll get home. And a month later it’d be like, well, I was kind of lame. I think I could have dumped bad. I didn’t, you know, beat yourself up. And so, yeah, it was just, just getting there.

But I, I [00:05:00] trained so hard. I can’t tell you, they might’ve hours. I put into training training to me is everything because it’s a way of controlling the controllables. There’s so many things, especially if you choose to do exhibitions in these environments, that you have no control over the way. I kind of deal with that.

If you like. Is you control what you can and then the rest, and it’s got nothing to do with me, what will be, what will be so training? I never miss session is everything. And yeah, I left in, I think it was about someone taught me a friend message a couple of years ago to say, Oh, this is, this is when you left to start second attempt.

And I wouldn’t have known that. So yeah, it was like a year ago this week. Good. And so sort of, cause yeah, you had eight months to do it. You landed in Antarctica. And then what was the sort of mindset you had for that trip? Because I imagine it was very different to the first attempt. Yeah. The difference is just what it was that I was going to get there.

And that would be enough. [00:06:00] And if I got the world record amazing, and that was so different from the first year where I was just like, now, if I don’t get the record, then that’s rubbish, blah, blah, blah. It was, it was very strange going to do the same thing again because there’s so many other things I had planned for that this year, that year.

So some way, like 10% of me was a little bit annoyed that I was going to do this again. And also I thought Antarctica I’ll be going there once in my lifetime. And that’ll be it. It’s such an incredible place. It’s so expensive to get to. I never thought in this lifetime, I’d be there twice. So I had a little bit of guilt over that, and I think I had guilt as well, because I know how many people want to do things like this.

Like if my laugh is not a huge amount of people, people want to do this and it’s so hard to get the money together. No, all exhibitions come on down because of it. And for me getting them funding for the second time, it was really straightforward. I called my sponsors [00:07:00] and it was a case that we thought you’d never ask.

Like, we’re so happy you’re going back. So it was really easy and it felt a bit, a bit handed, you know what I mean? Like I quite be quite, I think you get a lot from fighting for it and having those failures like, Oh, that person’s not gonna respond to me after all that company is. And Oh, this isn’t where all those things and this time it was like, yeah, he go.

And that was really odd. There was no fight. And I was a bit worried. Is that going to take away from my performance? I mean, nonsense. It didn’t. But yeah, it was a bit of a different mindset. It was a more grown up mindset, I think actually it was probably a bit ridiculous to, you know, have your, your primary goal was being the world record, but that’s the way I was.

Yeah, so. Started it was amazing. The weather was normal. I was like, this is normal. I talked to whether there’s a couple of big storms, but I was like, these are fine. I’m I’m skiing through them. And I was ahead of the world record [00:08:00] pace by nearly two days. All the way until things started going wrong.

I say never to play day. Yes, exactly. But really the main, you know, what led to everything going wrong with the was the leg? So I had a a condition called polar thigh mostly on my left inner thigh. And that is it’s fairly common amongst more women than men actually doing really long. Polar expeditions.

And there’s a lot of other walls, rather doctors kind of a bit unsure about what causes it and why. And they’re really, the best explanation we have for now is it’s kind of like a severe children. And obviously staying in the call makes it progressively worse and asked the skin is trying to heal.

So be sorry, I jumped a step. Miss a step. What happens is you have these ulcers on your leg. They’re very small to begin [00:09:00] with. And then they basically started to grow. So you’re like, Oh, that doesn’t look that great. I’ll just cover that up. And then it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And the reason they kind of keep growing, you’d be like, as they have with Dr.

Schooler reprofusion element. So as the blood flow is going back to the extra and he’ll actually causes more inflammation, more area gets damaged and it keeps growing. So there’s pictures of my injury. On the, on my Instagram account and they’re pretty horrible and you can kind of see how it’s. So they started off being really small.

And I only had one little sheet of granny flats, which is a kind of dressing we use on big expeditions where you can just quite fit. It’s like a slab of dressing or you peel it off, whack it on, and that’s not going to go anywhere until you kind of finished get home. You’ve had a long shower. And I was running out of that.

So I like looks a bit like a patchwork quilt near the end. But everything came on done. I had a really, really benign for, in a white type fell over nothing. And as I [00:10:00] landed, I heard and felt all the ulcers crack open, basically split open into one big. Leg wound. And it was, it was absolutely horrific.

I’ve never heard a noise like it, and I lay there is looking up nothing. It was a white eye and just crying. I mean, it was the most fun of physical pain I’ve ever been in. And then at that point, I think I had about a hundred, 150 miles to go, something like that. And it was like, wow. I, I I’m still going.

And by that point I went from skiing really well. I mean, everything was going so well. Like I said, I was ahead of the world place, world record pace, and suddenly I’m skiing and dragging a leg behind me. Sorry. I don’t think I explained at the beginning, I’ve got a huge sled behind me with my tent or my food supply.

So you, everything I could need, so that’s not white and I’m suddenly dragging this leg on it. It, it just became so, so difficult. Even things like putting the tent up and dine, [00:11:00] which in high winds is a fast, speedy job. You’ve got to be on it. And there’s lots of, kind of Europe. You’re dying. You’re putting snow here, building snow walls there and try and do that with my leg open.

Like that was. Awful. But yeah, there was, I was never, ever stopping that never, ever entered my mind. I moaned a lot to my dad as the expedition manager. And so I could, there’s a way of sending sort of text messages to my daughters and the Garmin inReach. And I’m very, I don’t, I’m not uncommon with a lot of people because it takes too much time.

So it was just Matt and my dad. I swear, every message was just my leg. I was so much buried. You don’t start and then I’d apologize promoting so much. I still don’t know how I did it. I don’t I had a very few painkillers left and these were painkillers that were. At my emergency bag. And they were in case I fell down and crevasse broke his shoulder, not be medivaced and they were to pop and take while I was waiting for the [00:12:00] helicopter or whatever, they were not meant to helps you like get to the sidewalk.

So I couldn’t see that during the day, because on a silhouette expedition, it’s just you and you need to have your wits about you for navigation, for you. Can’t be completely out of it. So I would take them at night until I run out and then I remember actually, Cause you can’t everything to be the lightweight bag.

So my painkillers roll a little labeled like food bag, snack bag. And I remember I was sitting there licking the inside of the bag to get the very last remnants of Bangler and Yeah, it was terrific. I arrived at the pole. The day that I saw the Paul, when it came into sight, I need that it was still very, very far away.

And I probably should have stopped and camped between between the two places I didn’t. I skied for 19 hours straight. For the last four or five hours, I didn’t stop for, for a drink or food. I was just like, I’m getting there. This is, this [00:13:00] is it. Got there at about two in the morning at the South pole met by the South pole guide camp manager, rather dev and he handed me a beer.

So yeah, it was, it was very, very strange for people listening. What is it like at the South pole? It feels mostly like a scientific base and you feel like you’re intruding. I wouldn’t say. So if you imagine this it’s the American scientific basis that were just huge. And also I think very messy.

I do remember thinking, God, you guys are untidy. There’s all sorts of equipment. Just like listed in their back garden. They’d be like, and I was really surprised they went more tidy, but anyway and a little bit as a South pole right outside their, their base the kind of barber pole that we all know and love.

And then maybe half a mile away from there is the, I guess what you’d call the tourist camp, which is tiny. I think there’s [00:14:00] about eight tenths. Maybe. And then a slightly bigger tent where like a mess, then you can come in and eat and play cards or whatever, and that’s where I’m allowed to be. But there’s very specific rules about where you’re allowed to go around the scientific kind of base camp.

I would say it’s the most welcoming place actually. It was very, very cold. The skylights, very old. Sometimes I was convinced I could see curvature, which obviously couldn’t, but it was, it was just very strange place to be. And I couldn’t believe after all this time, I’m finally here. But there was a doctor there, there isn’t normally a doctor at the site for camp.

But I should explain. So with my leg every night when I was skiing with that injury, I would tap to make a satellite phone call to the main base camp and speak to the doctors. And that was compulsory. And every day they say me to Maddie back, you need to you back here. And as you know, I’m well [00:15:00] versed in medivacs and I’ll start to get to this point.

And there’s no way I was being medivaced. And the reason being is I was not unwell. I had no fever. There was no signs of infection in my leg. Like it’s a very clean, sterile environment, Antarctica. And so I could not see the merit in being. Medivaced other than this is just going to get worse until you’re out of the cold.

And I decided I didn’t, I didn’t care about that. And I also thought my leg was getting better. So it kind of makes more sense if you can see the first photo of my leg with what I call the patchwork quilt of school, a little patches of Granuflex dressing. And in between that you can kind of see is dried blood, but I.

Hand on heart, just absolutely convinced that that was scabbing healthy scabbing. So it’s getting better underneath this dressing. That’s my mindset. I now know, cause when I got back to the UK, I was in hospital with it. [00:16:00] They brought in a sports psychologist and she explained that that was my, I was so I told my brain that, that we were going to the South pole.

So my mind just, just making stuff up. So my mind to me that is scrubbing and it’s getting better and that’s absolute nonsense. Like if you look at the pictures and I, I was, I was just getting there no matter what. And yeah, so there was a doctor waiting there at the South pole because I repeatedly refused to Maddie back from the needed to take a look.

It was kind of luck that he was there though, to be honest. And he took a look at the leg the next day. And him and dad who was helping bandage my leg and they couldn’t remove any of the Granuflex need a hot shower to do that. There’s no showers at the softball, so they just covered it in big, comfortable bandaging, just to keep me cozy.

And I was put on a diet of morphine and beer until we could fly out of the South pole. And you can’t just leave this. I thought this would be a clear [00:17:00] weather window at the side pole and the main base camp. And it’s like a. I think it was a four hour flight in between. It’s a long way. I mean, I thought it was huge.

So we were there three or four days and I was high the entire time. I don’t remember much of it. I do remember getting fed up and being high and they were just trying to keep me comfortable and also doing anything to avoid infection. I’m now around other people. I can’t get like infected, but what I do know is that when they first looked at my leg, they both the doctor and dad recoiled at the smell.

So you can see this in the second picture. And it was a big area of black tissue. Once they removed the ground flux. So that is necrotic is completely dead tissue. And apparently it’s stank something, obviously it doesn’t smell like rotting dishy. I did not smell that at once. And the sports psychologist, again, explain that, is your mind saying this there’s no smell there.

There’s something wrong with this leg. We’re going to the South pole. And I think the power of the mind then once it [00:18:00] was explained to me that way, that’s just, it just believe your way. And no one could believe I can smell it and I’d get my nose right into it. And then we’d be like, Oh God, Jen, how could you not smell that?

And it just couldn’t. So yeah, I had a great time at the pole. I drank beer, drank whiskey kept taking so many bankers. Eventually we flew back to the main base camp where I was put in a shower. That was a really traumatic experience for me. Peeling off that granny flux alarm list. Doesn’t make sense to you see the pictures, but appealing those bits off in the shower and in the shower I had instead of by the shower gel walls they gave me a bottle of whiskey.

And doctor’s orders was just keep sipping that whiskey. This is not, this is going to be awful. And fi fed me painkillers through the shower. Goten people said, I sounded like a howling animal and it was, it was very, very difficult. I was in a lot of physical pain. And then [00:19:00] yeah, then we waited for the flight home and there was no urgency around at this time because I was fine other than my leg.

I wasn’t unwell. And again, it just kept me drunk and high until I could go home. When straight home, thanks to BA to Heathrow husband needs me at the airport and he’s a plastic surgeon. And so he would normally do this operation on my leg, but couldn’t, didn’t fancy operating on his wife’s. It was colleague did it, but the weird thing in the airport, when I saw him, I hadn’t seen him in a long time.

It’s very exciting. Is he’s like, we’re going to the hospital right now. They’re waiting for you. And I was like, Whoa, dude, come on. No, I, I knew I needed to go to hospital, but to me I’m still in the mindset. I’m explaining if I can’t smell anything, I think it’s healing. I thought they needed to replace the bandaging since I was on plane.

And I also believed they just want me to have a look. It’s very rare to see qualify. It’s not very common at all. [00:20:00] I did not realize that I needed surgery. At all I thought, I thought Matt was crazy. Get to the hospital. They had a meeting by my surgeries. Meanwhile, I be in two backs of Chris two chocolate bars and they come out and say, we’re going to operate on you immediately.

And they couldn’t because I just stuffed my face. But yeah, I running all night, but step to your operations. And once you remove all that dead tissue, all the black bits and the horrible bits, second one was a big skin graft. And which took, I think 60% of it took. My recovery was really long. I had to go back to all celebrity.

You want to two days to get the dressing change. And I didn’t look at my leg for maybe six weeks. Psychologist really encouraged me to, and I just couldn’t. I thought, I know it looks horrific. I can tell from people’s reactions and I think I’d rather see it once it’s slightly more healed and then surely it’s more palatable to me.

And the psychologist was amazing. I got really bad flashbacks to the shower and Antarctica. So getting into a [00:21:00] shower at home was. Really scary. And I didn’t, like, I felt quite polished over that and I didn’t enjoy it. It wasn’t a case of like, Jen, just woman up, like, you’re fine. It’s just a shower. It was, it was a really big deal.

Not for long move at two weeks. And I also kept having these recurrent dreams in the hospital. I was in hospital for a week and a half and at home where the entire ward would turn into a huge storm. And I talked to her. And I could see the pole. It was like couple hundred yards in front of me. So I’d been on the road for, it took me 44 days in the end.

So I’ve been going for a long time. And father Christmas just stepped out and was like, Oh, you can’t go to the pool. It’s close today. Sorry, you need to go. You need to go home or a different innovation each time, but someone preventing me getting there. And again, it’s like, I’ll just explain that to your brain now, catching up the, you actually.

Made it and you’re home and it hasn’t quite processed that yet. And so you’re still getting this like, fear that you’re still there and haven’t made it yet. [00:22:00] So it’s always, all of that was quite a bit yeah. Deal some days, some ways. It wasn’t I lost no function to my leg, which was huge to me. It’s the first thing I asked.

After both my operations, when I woke up all groggy was like, have I lost any function? And if had lost function, I dunno what statement it had to be in. And I’d have been really, really upset because like manger didn’t need to be this bad. This is purely me wanting to complete something, but there’s no loss of function.

There’s just a very, very big sky. That’s an incredible story. And as you show incredible determination and drive to sort of push through the sort of pain barrier. And as you said, that sort of mentality, have you always had this drive and this determination from, were you always ultra competitive growing up?

Not really growing up, but definitely, you know, this kind of loss teenage years where I was. Do you know what I was doing? [00:23:00] Just kind of figuring my fight. It wasn’t like that then. I think once I started getting into ultra running, and first of all, it starts with a half marathon, then a marathon, then a longer Bathum you start to think, wait a minute, all these kinds of limitations I’d play some more.

I assumed I could do absolutely nonsense. And then suddenly you’re doing like 400 mile races and that seems insane. And then someone’s like, well, have you heard about this 500 mile race? And you’re like, well, hold on. No, I haven’t always been super competitive. Not in my younger years, but as an adult, definitely, but only ever with myself, I don’t play the comparison game with anyone.

I care about what I’m doing, what I’m getting up to. So no, I don’t, but I forgotten the question though.

I do remember what it was. Yeah. So the, the drive and determination aspect of it. I’ve always known that it’s definitely in me. Like if I say I’m doing something, I mean it, and it’s going to happen and I [00:24:00] will organize my life, my lifestyle, everything to make it. So but what speaks to me about this expedition is I did not know that I had the mental strength.

Is it strength? I don’t know, to push through that level of pain. And some people think that’s amazing. I think that’s a bit scary. Something that needs to be kept in check a little bit, because I think I said this earlier on, but I I’ve, I’ve done events where I’m a huge amount of physical pain. Had a broken bone, but I run through, I can, I can put the pain somewhere else in my mind and it must be adrenaline as well.

You’re doing a race. And then when ends, like you feel the injury tenfold, you deal with it then. And when I was younger, especially I would train through injuries. Didn’t care. I just keep going, keep going. I’m not, I’m older. I don’t do stupid stuff like that, but I definitely use certain care and I was in pain, but being able to.

Carry on skiing with that leg wound. That’s crazy to me. And so I knew I had that mental strength [00:25:00] there, but I am, I think it’s something too. It’s good that I’m aware of. But. Yeah, you definitely there’s a balance. You’ve got to keep that in check a little bit, because it might not end that way next time.

Did you get into ultra running after your cancer diagnosis? Yes, it wasn’t, it wasn’t cancer and they treated it very aggressively because it was so large. They couldn’t do any biopsy of it. And so I was given a strong form of treatment to shrink it in size between the really sick. And then they operated on it from the hospital in London.

I signed up to my first ultra from there and I’d never done anything like it. I signed up to the marathon dis up from bed and I don’t remember doing it. It was like the day after my surgery. And so obviously I was put on a waiting list. I didn’t automatically get a spot. I think it was only like.

It would have been just for [00:26:00] Christmas and the races, I think in April or something. I can’t remember. And it was, yeah, I got home. And then at Christmas, I remember my, I got an email one day from someone called Sarah saying, congratulations, you’ve got a place on the map and decide you’re on the waiting list.

And the spots come up and I was like, what the hell? And I was like, Oh my God, I do remember something about that. And I was like, well, this is a sign. I’ve got to do it. So I just paid the deposit and that was it. But that was my first foray into really long distance. I’ve done marathons before that, but nothing like big ultras.

Do you think that diagnosis, there was a sort of kick in terms of you to pursue these adventures? It definitely wasn’t it was this coming back to the job I was doing at the time I was, I was working and it was like, I mean, I never, ever believed that it was going to be a cancer diagnosis. A lot of family and the doctors are very worried about me, but they just, I didn’t feel [00:27:00] unwell, I guess maybe don’t a lot people said they don’t, but I just didn’t believe there’s anything wrong with me.

I just needed to get through this, but I still hadn’t moved. We still are faced with life. Could look very different. Or it could be shortened, massively. And so what am I doing with my time? What matters to me? And it’s certainly not earning a fortune as a lawyer, so God, and so there’s a sort of part of the show where we are the same five questions to each guest each week.

And the first is on your trip. Let’s say to the South pole, what was the one bizarre thing that you craved or miss from home? So I don’t miss anything when I’m away. I really don’t, I don’t miss things. I don’t miss food. Like I love dehydrated food which most people do not, but I adore it. And if I’m being really lazy and [00:28:00] there’s no one around to cook, I make a dehydrated meal for dinner.

I really do. The one thing I remember craving a couple of times on his last expedition was being able to crawl into my own bed. That’s all I can. I just want you to get into the bed, like preferably with a dog. And just be like cozy. I think it is what my leg was really, really painful. I just wanted my own, I do have a daydreaming by, Oh my do these amazing.

Oh, and there’s my pillow. Oh, it’s such a good, but no, I don’t. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t crave anything. At all, I love getting away from everything. So it was no cravings. We had Judy Stewart on on episode four and he was saying, he wrote his book about traveling the world. And one of them was you don’t quite appreciate it.

Home until you come back to your own pillow is your old pillow, is everything. Yeah, that’s [00:29:00] the only thing I thought about it. Wasn’t Doobie and my pillow. Yeah, I imagine with the temperatures in the South pole, must’ve, must’ve really emphasized it a bit, just wanting to hide and yeah, it’s that it’s actually quite warm and your tent in places like that.

Except your member, there’s 25 sunlight. And so your, your tent becomes this kind of soundtrack? Not always. But yeah, it’s not too cold in the extra time. Did you have like a favorite adventure book growing up? Sorry, looking at my bookshelf behind me, like, which one’s my favorites. What sort of books inspired your adventures?

Oh, gosh. Anything about the outdoors? Like cycling around the world? Mountaineering books all around are fine books. I mean, I’ve got all of them and I’ve read them all many times. Oh, the race to the pole with James Cracknell Ben Fogel. That [00:30:00] was a five-part TV series as well as a book. And it’s on YouTube still.

And I’ve watched that so many times. I find it comforting, just having it on in the background. Also my husband’s in it, but they’re my favorite book that I have read at least 10 times. And I read it both times before I went to Antarctica again is by, for the CS. And he is, I think the world’s leading female polar Explorer.

And it’s called alone in Antarctica. She was the first woman to do a full crossing and I talked to her. She’s amazing. And it’s so beautifully written. She’s such a great writer. So yeah, that’s my favorite favorite book. And if you need it, if you haven’t been trying to tie it together, but you want to kind of understand what it’s like, that book takes you there.

Oh, like, I love it. Did you have an inspirational figure growing up? [00:31:00] I grew up in Borneo and there was a huge amount of poverty. And so I obviously knew that we weren’t poor, we weren’t on the poverty line and I used to play with a lot of kids who lived in like the called them combines. So kind of like the shanty times next door to where we were.

So we were there because parents worked for an oil and gas company. And so you’re in a nice kind of estate if you like, and everyone else was next door, which I really struggled with as a kid, but they, it was the. The children that I played with in the rainforest or out in those shantytowns because we were always in there as kids we weren’t supposed to be, but it was more fun.

They had nothing like really nothing. And I had all these toys and I was like, but they are just as happy as I am. And they’ve just grow going up there. Everything I buy [00:32:00] that place, set a lasting influence on me. And my mom has a memory of this story where I had a big birthday party. All these presents given to me and mom and dad popped out for like 10 minutes and they came back and I’d given away all my presence over the offense.

You know, God, I just really struggled with having so much and I really, really struggled settling back into the UK and we moved back when I was 12. And I thought that UK was the craziest place ever. I really didn’t like it. I didn’t understand why people cared about wearing branded clothing.

Why that’s so much stuff. And I find it really, really hard, but in terms of he’s always inspired people like that, that I grew up with because they had nothing.

Do you have like a favorite quote or motivational quote? Yeah, I’ve got loads. I actually write a lot of quotes on the inside of my tent, my expedition time [00:33:00] and what I’ve got in big. So it’s the first thing you see when you wake up on the roof of the tent and inside is let routine take command or feeling harsh.

Remember you say that this is really bad with someone in the polar community. I think it’s early in Calgary actually. It’s basically. No matter how you’re feeling, you have a routine to follow because on polar expedition, any kind of expeditions, especially long ones, the routine you have every day of I’m up at this time takes 20 minutes of all the water and eat that I’m doing this, I’m doing this, I’m on the road by nine.

You have to stick to that routine, especially when you’re by yourself. Like if you and I went to do something together in Antarctica, if you were having a bad day, I’d be like, come on, dude, let’s get going. You’d be like, okay. Yeah. And you do the same for me the next day if I was low, but when you’re so low, there’s no one there.

To do that for you. So you really, really are independent in the, in the true sense of the word. So the routine becomes everything. It’s almost like the rule book. And [00:34:00] so no matter how you’re feeling, don’t worry about the tent. Don’t want to do this state stuff cause there’s a routine. So the routine is King.

And then also number one thing was to never look outside the tent. Before you got up properly, because if you saw there was a whiteout, you’d just be miserable, getting ready, like an extra 20 minutes is going to be a rough day. So I would never look until I, till I got outside. Good. How did you find your routine and lockdown and fine?

A lot of people assumed I would struggle in lock down and go a bit crazy, but actually I had, I really liked it because I had no pressure to do, to say yes to things or be anywhere. No one can make me because in the light castle, I definitely did have a routine though. I stuck to my training. Yeah, I didn’t miss any training and locked down.

It was just doing it in the living room or on the bike indoors. So yeah, the routine was just as important in some of my locked down and everyday kind of became [00:35:00] Groundhog day a little bit. Yeah. And I suppose people listening are always keen to travel and go on these sort of grand adventures. What’s the one thing you would recommend them to get started?

I always tell people to find self mental. Especially if it’s something that you think is pretty big or is quite Neeti, whereas maybe an area that not many people have been to find someone who’s maybe done it before and nine times out of 10, they’re more than willing to give you a hand. And help you out.

And I think like I mentor a lot of people who want to do things in Antarctica and it, you know, the first phone call it’s like, I just got this crazy dream. I don’t really know it’s possible. I think it just helps speak to someone he’s like, that’s totally possible. You just need to speak to this person needs to do this and dah, dah, dah, and just break it down.

And it’s like, Oh, that’s totally achievable. Yeah, it’s fine. But when it, when it’s, because I had the same mentor when I first want to do something in Antarctica and I think it’s then your circle of friends or your family. [00:36:00] What you’re suggesting to them is your little idea is absolutely bananas. So you need to speak to someone, you know, that’s, that’s not crazy, totally doable.

And then you’re suddenly like, Oh, you’re standing up, but totally you’re like, wait, I think I can’t do this. And so I always say that. Yeah. Okay. And what are you doing now? What are your sort of future plans with your adventures and how can people follow you? So 2020 was canceled. Everything for 2020 was moved to 2021.

The, what I was doing that was rowing the Pacific, the team of three other women. And that was going to be next Jean. But then something more exciting came along. So I’m currently pregnant. And so a lot of things for next year being canceled, not canceled or rescheduled related date. Yeah, but the one thing I do have in diary for next year I got a document they’re filming a documentary at the moment.

And then in [00:37:00] October next year is the adventure race world championships in Spain. Which I’m in with a team of three others and that’s the the first ever all female team to take parts part and the adventure world champs. It’s very exciting. And so I’ve never, ever retrained as something like that with a newborn, but I’m going to give it a go God.

Oh, good luck. And sounds amazing. And how can people follow this journey? Just on Instagram, just an assistant, Jenny, Jenny, Jenny. Okay. Okay, amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the show today and I’m sure like everyone listening is being an incredible story, just in unbelievable determination and drive.

Please ignore the Make signals may kilohm gain off in the background, [00:38:00] but yeah, just a remarkable stuff. Thank you. Yeah, I do remember the last thing my surgeon said to me was I hope you wear the scars with pride. Well, I think it kind of do. Yeah. Well yeah, they, as, as you were describing and the pictures show, it was quite a horrific injury.

Yeah. Well, again, thank you so much.

EP.012: George Bullard

George Bullard (Explorer)

George Bullard is a world record explorer. To date, he has covered more than 2,000 miles on foot in the polar regions and completed countless expeditions around the world. On today’s podcast, we talk about his world record kayak from Greenland to Scotland as well as his search for Shackleton’s flask lost more than a hundred years ago, This episode comes with a warning though as we talk about the struggles of going to the loo in a sea kayak in some detail as well as a funny story of a poo rainbow in the Arctic.

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Transcript of our Conversation

George Bullard

[00:00:00] George Bullard: Olly and I said no to our only chance of survival, fact. And we’ve had along towards the Fareo Islands and the fishermen went back to their fishing and they genuinely believed that they were going to be the last people to see us alive. And they said this too, to the cameras, you know, afterwards they’re like, we thought that they were going to die.

We thought we were going to be picking up a boat and looking at the bodies later that day.

Hey, George, how are we doing John? I’m very well. Thanks. How are you? Not too bad. Well, great to have you on the show. And I suppose the best place to start is probably with people listening. It’s about yourself and where are you and what have you been doing? [00:01:00] That is a minute. Another question, actually, John right now Because the answer to that is not a huge amount like of the world.

Anyway. My name’s George Bullard and I’m a World Breaking Explorer I’ve spent basically the last what are we now like I’m now 30 , 32 God. And since I was 14, really I’ve been doing expeditions most years, really. And some of them broken world records. Some of them haven’t some of them has been phenomenal trips and adventures.

So like most corners of the world. And my mission is to rewild humans. I believe super passionately in the power of the outdoors and the power that mother nature can have on all of us, whether that’s like spiritually, whether that is emotionally, physically or mentally, you know, I think all of these aspects, the outdoors can affect you.

[00:02:00] And I really use the sort of big expeditions as a, as a, as a. A sort of piece, a signature piece, which says, you know this is what George is about. This is what he loves. And yeah, I’ve been super fortunate enough to do some really, really silly ones and had some ridiculous things happen on them.

But I’ve also been fortunate to do some very serious ones. And I guess achieved some pretty, I, I still can’t believe it. So by that, by those means it’s pretty remarkable. Well, let’s start with the ridiculous ones that, I mean, the more ridiculous ones I went down to Dan to Anton Arctic and In 2008 to go and try and find someone’s stove, which is quite a nice trip reason to go down to Antarctica because they ask you, they say they’d lost it.

And they really wanted it back. Yeah, exactly. They were like, dude, I’m trying to keep my, put my eggs and I can’t have my avocado on toast [00:03:00] without my staff. No, it wasn’t ridiculous. It was you know, it was a very real, real trip, but we went down there to Dan, to this sub Antarctic Island of South Georgia.

Which and we went there to go and try and find a Shackleton stove and you know, it was a remarkable trip and it was, it was. I basically, the story goes that as shackle team, Kate Chapman came over South Georgia. He went through the break when gap, which is remarkable sort of saddle right on the backbone of South Georgia, which, and South Georgia very sort of narrow thin Island.

And it’s, it’s home to every single breeding animal. That’s that, or land breeding animal that lives in the Southern ocean. So it’s stuff for the animals and, you know, we as humans go there and we’re just, we’re just like, Part of the food chain, you know, genuinely feel like you’re going to be eaten by something.

If you cross its path. And anyway, saturate is a stunning place. If you ever get the chance to go there, you must. [00:04:00] And we, we are, you know, really about Shackleton story and how apparently when he heard the noise of the whales or the bells or the whaling station which used, which was used to be there.

They’re there now obviously no longer operational. When you heard the sounds, he, he ran down the Hill and left everything up just beneath the break, when gap on South Georgia and You know, nearly a hundred years later, I think we’re how many worse we must’ve been here. We’re a team of eight team of eight teenagers traveled.

A few thousand miles across the Southern ocean to go and try and pick up Shackleton stove for him and and bring it home. So there was a few other, like other purposes of the trip, but that was, I guess the more ridiculous, but, and then when you put it into, into those words, Oh, wow. [00:05:00] Have you ever read South Georgia, John?

I have not. No. I, I love to go as I say, that Shackleton stories and absolutely Epic one from his insurance trip. But yeah on the list, definitely. Get it on that list, put it on that list for sure. I recommend it for like anyone’s list. It’s it’s a remarkable Island. And you know, there was also some, some serious projects we did obviously within the, within the, within the expedition, we found a new whole new species of burn.

We span, found a new colony of penguins. We did some retake photography, which was pretty shocking actually to be, to be honest with you retake photography is about as simple, as simple as it comes. We found you know some photos from the archives in Iraq, geographical society, where when sort of South Georgia was, was first colonized or first occupied colonized lived on probably the best word.

[00:06:00] And yeah, the, the, the pictures of the glassy, for example, this straightforward, straight up pitch, straight a picture of the glass here. And, you know, our intention was to go down there and take exactly the same picture once again. So standing exact on the same. You know, stones that the photographer stood on over a hundred years ago and take the same picture.

And then you can obviously see how the glasses have changed. And it is it’s truly terrifying actually how much the glasses have retreated. There is no lag. There’s no beating around that Bush. It’s it’s it’s truly terrible. And did you manage to find it.

No, we didn’t notify stove, so it’s still there. We were, we were actually, we were eating is still that to be found. We were even sponsored by, by mine lab. And I’m pretty sure don’t quote me on this, but I’m pretty sure mine lab. [00:07:00] Provide the military, like the army, the British army with their mind detecting some you know, metal detecting bleepers and pretty.

And they are quite a few of these. And so either we were looking in the wrong place or all the metal attackers don’t work. I hope the former. For the sake of the richest military, but

good. And say that was 2008. And then you finally got into university. Well, no, 2000. And that was Christmas 2007 in 2008. And then yeah, and then I came back from South from the Antarctic and I was giving a talk. In the Royal geographical society in London, which is which is a lovely place. And At that talk.

I then met someone who simply said to me do you want to come on an expedition to break [00:08:00] the world’s longest, fully unsupported polar journey in history? So in layman’s terms, no one’s ever walked further in a polar region without support. And that was the first time I met this guy and the second, because like, My brain is quite small.

And like both, both cells were vibrating quite quickly. I said, yes. Why not? J I genuinely not lying to you. This is exactly how it happened. I was like, yeah. All right, let’s do it. The second time I met this guy Alex, we were packing our stages and the third time I met this guy, I was in Stansted airport.

Heading off, heading up to the Arctic. So I got back from Antarctica in the, in the in January. And then I left for the Arctic in March. It was quite a quick turnaround and yeah, straight up to the Arctic for 113 day long walking journey covering just under one and a half thousand miles. And it still stands today as the [00:09:00] longest unsupported Arctic journey.

And yeah, so it was pretty, all pretty remarkable, really. Okay. And then sort of university life took, it, took hold and then posting. I mean, you, you need got to took hold and but so did my desire to continue going out on expeditions. And so really I just genuinely, what I’ve done is, is use my holidays.

From school university, even like work when work, when I finally got job at holidays from that to, to do things, which I was you know, proud of and to do things which do adventurous things and yeah, that lit, that led me on all sorts of all sorts of journeys in 2000. And. Nine I guided S 50 odd kids in the Amazon rain forest.

We brushed exploring [00:10:00] in 2010. I cycled across Europe in 2011. I took some kids to took some kids up to the Arctic to foul Bard. And that was where the poo rainbow happened in Saba, which is quite a funny story. We might come onto that in a minute. And then two that genuinely made were in 2012.

We’ve got things like every single year up to 20 to 2020 now genuinely. So, you know, we could go on and on. But they’ve been pretty remarkable really. I say, tell us about the P rainbow, where there was stories out about he was blue rainbow only smokes. So. Let me set the scene. Yeah, 75 people at kids and leaders and guides say who has 75 kids or 66 year old kids and 15 guides.

Some guys responsible for science. Some of them are more responsible for the adventure side of things. And we were living on this beach. [00:11:00] Didn’t really even know. I mean, some of you guys might not know as far by it is, it’s an archipelago, a Norwegian archipelago about 78 degrees North due North of Norway.

Right. At beautiful capitols along your bed. It’s 3000 people live there. It’s, it’s really it’s home to the seed bank. So in on the outside longhand, the main capital city. Is this Hill and in the side of the Hill is literally just a doorway. Is it’s a door like your front door. The doorway goes into the mountain and you know, you pull the door open and you enter the world’s largest seed bank where where seeds from every single species of plant on the work in the, in the world are stored.

So it’s pretty remarkable. As a, as a location, it’s obviously lots of tourism there. He’ll go there to see the Northern lights to see polar bears. And anyway, this expedition, we were. [00:12:00] Again, it was all about youth development, leadership skills through their doing like retake photography again in sail Bard.

We were doing studies. Around heat exchange and teaching the kids had a client glass would go ice climb and survive in the Arctic. It’s pretty, it’s pretty extreme, really fair to take, you know, 16 to 21 year olds from a, you know, UK environment into the arts, you know, lots of training going on beforehand, you know?

And so the answers are patient excitement. The, you know, the, the, almost the nerves of getting there is phenomenal. And we finally got, got to Longie burn. We then get on a boat and we have effectively, almost a day’s boat journey to get to, to deliver us onto the beach front, where we were setting up our base camp and Base camp was literally just a big fat beach where we could put up you know probably 30 odd tents.

By the time you’ve [00:13:00] got all the leader’s tents and the mess tents and things all in rows for polar bear protection and stuff like that. And obviously all of the loos and like go to one of the beautiful things. One of the most beautiful things about. Adventure. And one of these I love is that it doesn’t matter.

Like, you know, what, what you’re wearing. It doesn’t matter how big your wallet is, what car you drive doesn’t matter because you all poo in the same bucket. Right? You’re all exactly the same. Yeah. There’s no differentiating. There’s no like, Oh, I can afford the taxi. You can’t, you’re walking. I’m going to get home five hours.

And for you, none of it, because you know, everyone’s just the same and it’s, it creates a beautiful dynamic within it, within a team. For another story. And so we were, you know, All pulling in the same bucket and what the slab art or authorities told us to do, because we’re totally remote. You know, there’s no sewage works.

There’s no like electricity running [00:14:00] water, like a tap where you just turn the water on Philip or like, you know, nothing. It’s literally just the beach. And we were living on the beach and we, we brought in all of our freeze dried food. And so needless to say, there’s like 75 people all polling right. Every day.

It’s a kind of a fact, like, you know, some, like some people were putting twice a day and it came to me to empty the loops, like, you know, guide leader, whatever. Okay. It’s, it’s you know, we’ve got to maybe lead by example and it was quite early on in the trip. I was probably like probably four or five days in.

To what was a, what’s going to be an eight week trip to quite early on, actually, you know, where are you fresh kit feeling like, you know, just sort of getting stuck in, just settling into beach life. And anyway, the spa authorities had told us that we should take our poo bags are biodegradable poo bags and throw them into the fuel.

You know, [00:15:00] just like 10 yards off the shore and then throw stones at them to sink it. And then it would sync and biodegrade at the bottom of the ocean. So it wouldn’t like float off and, you know, all go over. Not that, you know, not that it would really anyway, but that’s what they wanted us to do. So my turn came, it was probably like one of the first few times we had to do it emptying, you know, ritual of like throwing stones or throwing it into the, into the 10 yards off the shore, throwing it at the same stage and thinking it was quite a crowd developing and quite a lot of excitement.

Everyone’s like, Oh, I got to George’s turn, you know, kids come and watch the poo poo bag disappear. And so I limit up, you know, quite excited about this made sure the knot was firmly tied. And anyway, sort of stood next to it, but like I was going to do a gold shot, swung it back this way. And then as I swung through, I think, I think at my core cram pot or something on the way through, or yeah, pretty cramp on, I think on top of my boot or something.

[00:16:00] And as I released it, there was this like, Sort of rainbow that formed in front of me and like the onshore breeze, just put this boot Ramo, like kind of back onto my face. So it was day four of an eight week project of eight a week. Expedition covered in poop. I know great access to the showers out there.

Or there were no showers.

I, you know, had a little face wash and wash my hands. I guess people were avoiding you for quite a number of days. Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean to some animals, right? Rolling in peers. Like my dog seems to roll in pool all the time. So it seems to be a bit of a, you know, smell nights. And so maybe you’re one with the animals.

Exactly. Exactly. You know, salt of the earth, at least, you know, joining in with animals, not, not apart [00:17:00] from nature. I’m a part of nature. I mean, there’s polar bears, gays. I’m sure you will be lost on their list. Well, yeah, but possibly, possibly we, we shouldn’t, we shouldn’t joke too much about it. Shouldn’t joke about that, because that was an expedition where one of the kids got killed by a polar bear.

And you may remember in 2011 and I was a guide on that trip. So yeah, I mean, I, yeah, we’re very, very sad and trip. The trip actually ended up not lasting the eight weeks that we’d intended it to, but you know, again, it was It was a very, very sad fought sequence of events. But you know, we learned a lot and very grateful for the experience.

And I guess now I continue to speak a lot about that expedition, both corporately, but also sort of privately about the leadership and about the, the, the mental wellness handling, that sort of thing. And you know, I really, really, really enjoy that because it’s, it’s such [00:18:00] a, such a. Unique experience to have to go through a unfortunate experience, to have to go through that.

Now, being able to share that and help other people is really important to me. So I think probably without going through all these adventures from 2004, what were you like as a child?

That’s very good question. I mean, I, I’m just imagining quite a difference. Cool. One that just loves to climb trees, run around paying part of the sort of adventurous child that. We all were. Yeah. Which your mother was probably like, Oh, why can’t he just be normal? Yeah. She probably still says the same thing now to be honest, I’m pretty sure.

Yeah. You know what, all I can tell you is, as a kid, I had a lead, I had this, these [00:19:00] rates, like this thing was you could always steer me with cause my parents used to travel quite a lot. My dad worked in the U S and. So I ended up like flying quite a lot and genuinely in airports. I was a complete nightmare because I was like, what’s that?

And then that would have to be like, go back.

And I think, I think as a kid, I probably I’m gonna say I was like, all kids, you know, Isaac, I am like all kids. And I, I think this is like not the key to. Me for me, it’s only the key for me. That’s all I can say. I can speak for myself. I certainly, as a kid, I remember myself being incredibly inquisitive, incredibly like yeah.

Always asking like questions, finding new things, looking. Yeah. Curious. I think curious is there is a very good way to describe me. And in fact, I’ve got, you have no idea. This that’s the whole [00:20:00] thing about curious George and many of you came across it. John, did you come across curious, George? I have heard of curious George.

Yes. Right. He’s a monkey, which just goes like everywhere and he has a great time. And I read all of his books eight times and I’ve got, I’ve got quite a few teddies of curious George, and I think that’s kind of, that sums me up really well. Is that actually, I was just an incredibly curious kid.

And you always, you say always climbing trees sometimes to my detriment. I actually, I’m remembering as a little story now that I, I don’t know why, but this thing get out of my head. I was like, I wonder whether there was some cows in the field beneath the tree, and I used to love climbing this one particular tree.

And I was like, I wonder whether I could swing on a rope swing and then launch myself and land on the back of a cow, just like Clint Eastwood would do if he rode cows and the horses. And and you know, just see what happened. Anyway I [00:21:00] didn’t quite go to plan, to be honest, I picked up a bit of rope, which was actually just on the floor.

And so when I swung out of the tree onto my target, which was, you know, the cow was perfectly lined up. I was off, I swung out of the tree and just hit the floor and I broke my skull and broke the bone in my head. My skull. And had to learn to read and write again. So I did quite a good job of that as a five-year a four or five-year-old.

Yeah, but it, you know, so as a kid, yeah. I’d say very curious, but then I think there’s a, there’s a degree of nature versus nurture going on here. Isn’t there. And on the one side I’m naturally curious and very keen to like, Cling on to that curiosity as I grow, get older as the inevitable thing as the inevitable passage of time dictates.

But I think there was a degree of [00:22:00] nurturing there as well, where where my parents sort of brought me up with like a, a toolbox of, of, of of saying yes of positivity. A toolbox where I was taught to say yes and give it my everything, give it 110%. And if I fail, don’t worry about it. Kind of learn from it and go on.

And so that was, that’s kind of really the person who I am naturally curious and inquisitive. But I guess my parents had given me that toolbox to be like, yes, go for it. Try, try your hardest. Never give up, go for, you know, all of that. That sort of sentiment. I think in some coaches, you know, failure is sort of embrace and in some, maybe the UK sort of frowned upon, I’m a big advocate for learn through failure.

I mean, all the [00:23:00] sort of big entrepreneurs or the old. People who do a lot of stuff, they fail in so many, but they just need to learn from those mistakes. And eventually they sort of build themselves up. Yeah, absolutely. And it is important. It’s so important, I think. And it’s important for me and my I, my own happiness and satisfaction and and all of that, you know, and fulfillment.

And I’m not saying failure is important for that, but I like to feel like I’m making progress. I’m going somewhere. I’m, you know, I can look back on the year and be like, Hey, you know what, actually, this has been a really crappy year because, cause of COVID, but actually, you know, I’ve I’ve learned to keep bees I’ve learned.

Bake as most people have, I’ve learned to build houses. You know, I’ve got my HGV test, I’ve done a few podcasts, I’ve done whatever, you know, and actually then you could pick out the success stories and learn from the failures. You know [00:24:00] it’s how you choose to view your success and failure rather than.

You know, looking back on your failure and having as a sort of main part of your year, you look back and say, Oh, okay, I failed on that, but this is what happened. You look at the positives rather than the negatives. Yeah, absolutely. John, but I also think that the whole idea of failure is, is also totally up here in the top two inches.

You know, that the most powerful thing you work because actually, you know, you can, the only person who portrays your failure in different ways as you, I mean, no one else does really. It was just like, Oh, well it didn’t work. Or he failed or they failed. It doesn’t matter, not a big deal. And it’s only then in your own head where you’re like, You know, I’ve failed, I’m a misery.

And then you lead yourself off down the sort of the mental, mental route mentally mental instability, unstable route which we’ve all been down, you know, I’ll be first at my hands up and be like, you know what? I’ve, I’ve failed. And it’s, it’s something that’s kept me super deep and having to cancel my latest project.

[00:25:00] Cut me super deep, you know? Yeah, it’s been, it’s been horrific. So first I put my hand up there. Latest projects. I suppose it’d be interesting to sort of go into detail because I know that that project has been four years in the making. And I, I will say, I think people listening and watching things, sometimes I underestimate how much planning.

And planning and detail goes into these sort of expeditions. Can you tell us a bit about that particular expedition? Absolutely, of course. Yeah. So this this was an adventure, like I guess I was super excited about it was certainly like for me the most exciting thing that I had. Ever done without [00:26:00] a doubt, without a doubt.

It’s we, what, what, where do I start? Basically, the reason for the, for the expedition is that. The Arctic ocean is a very misunderstood place to such an extent that I could almost go as far as saying we know very little about the Arctic ocean during winter. And I almost might go as far as saying that we know about more about the surface of the moon than we do about desertification in winter.

And. That basically led us, let us to try and reverse that or like change the balance because the altercation is absolutely is a vital part of our survival vital part, because as I’m sure, you know, John, but the both poles. Okay. I covered in white and that’s important because it acts as the Earth’s [00:27:00] natural refrigerator.

Where the sun’s rays are reflected back out, away from the sun, away from the earth, back into the atmosphere and keep us cool. Keep us, you know, within the sort of temperate climate we enjoy and can survive in. And as soon as the ice on the Arctic ocean is most at risk because Antarctica’s obviously got altitudes to help, but the Arctic ocean is at sea level.

And it’s just the CIS, which is it, CIS, which is like a cross device or floating on top of a huge ocean, the Arctic ocean. And when that ice has gone, we then enter like an irreversible negative feedback loop of warming of the Arctic ocean. It will, does not stop absorbing sunlight basically. So once the ice has gone, it’s never coming back.

And the only, the one way that I can describe this. And I can’t describe it more with more like [00:28:00] seriousness aside from saying that once the Arctic ice has disappeared. We will be walking. Oh, sorry. The disappearance of the art to guys is a one-way street. There is, there’s no like turning round and being like, Oh, let’s go back down there to get back to how it was.

And we had the art, the ice in the Arctic. No, no, no, it’s impossible. It can’t happen because of it’s a, it’s an irreversible negative feedback loop. It’s a one-way street. And so, and w C peculiar to us was that there was no data. We just don’t know very much about it. And there’s, there’s really. That is a huge gap.

And so we were heading up to the altercation to gather never before seen data, content, imagery, research and we would be able to send it back live. So we’d have like, I’d be able to do this sort of thing live from the middle of the Arctic ocean in the depths of winter, up to pick up the phone, pick up the phone and show you [00:29:00] outside.

And there’d be a polar bear there watching in the window of this boat. It was a decommissioned lifeboat. So, you know, it was really exciting project where we would be on the forefront of science and it was just. I guess really, unfortunately we didn’t manage to get away before COVID. Cause that would have been phenomenal to be up there as a really positive story for this year.

But it sadly wasn’t to be, and we got just caught in, in it it’s basically, and meant that it really put us put a big spanner in our works. And yeah, as you speak. Correctly about the planning and preparation of this. And you know, it’s, it’s huge from, from the logistics and operations, from the science partnerships, from the partnerships with brands to build the funds, to try and, you know, allow us to buy the boat and redo the boat, build the sledges train at, collect the content, you know, there’s, there’s [00:30:00] just, there’s so much stuff going on.

And yeah, it took the best part of four years from when we first sort of. Came together as a team. And when we then canceled it finally in July which was a really re Oh, maybe even before that actually turned out before that, which was really upsetting, but it was the right thing to do at that time, because we were just at the link and sort of.

We’re very much at the point where we would just about to have to start to spend money on logistics and operations, to get us to the ice, to get the boat to the ice. And all that money is non-refundable where we were now. We still had a pot of money, which we could give back and be like, you know, let’s keep that let’s it’ll happen next year sort of thing, or you’re off.

So is that the hope that it will be picked up next year or the year after. Yeah, for me, for me, like my, for sure. Without no doubt, you know, I’m, I’m super passionate about that sort of stuff. And I have no need to go to near any poles or anything like that, or [00:31:00] stand there because there’s nothing there.

So there’s no reason to go there, but I really am. I believe passionately in the in the, in the pursuit of doing these sort of things with a purpose and that, for that purpose to be. Sustainability. I think is, is, as we all know, it’s suddenly becoming key to our survival and and the more people that know about that, and this is sort of why you talk about rewilding humans, which you are sort of passionate about is that idea of being in nature and actually having.

The natural habitat still there still as it is for future generations. Yeah, man. Exactly. I think even David, Adam has spoke about it in his film and I’m always witness statement as he called it. Which I’m sure you might’ve seen or witnessed. But the whole idea of rewilding the planet for me, it starts with rewilding humans.

And [00:32:00] I just, I truly believe that every single one of us have become disconnected from. The very essence of why we’re here. It’s, it’s taken me like, I guess 14 years of expeditions where I run out of food live with, you know, I had to find tap water to drink and you know, and had to keep myself warm and survive, you know?

And that that’s, what’s taken, it’s taken me that long to realize that. And I don’t think that any, I would never expect anyone else to have to go through that to understand that. But, but the fact that I like the fact that kids nowadays, I it’s a very broad term, but the fact that I I’ve actually I’ve started seeing, I’ve been part of this project, which basically takes kids to farms where they can say, this is where your potatoes come from.

They’re like, nah, that’s not, that’s not right. Potatoes come from comes from you know, it comes from the freezer department in Tescos and you know, that, that [00:33:00] is so sad and completely wrong. Well they’re right. But you know, McCain’s oven chips or whatever they’re called. I think we all ended up in ships and all of us have like a real responsibility to.

So bring us back to actually what’s key to our survival is mother nature. And without that, without the sustainability, the sustainable angle, we can’t plant crops. We can’t produce food. And then we can’t have chips in the freezer bin in Tescos won’t work, other supermarkets are available. And until you’ve created that connection between the outdoors and their life there, survival.

Yeah. I remember the story. I think it was on the radio and the presenter was saying that he, he had some chickens out the back and he remembers going to [00:34:00] pick up the eggs and as he was doing it, the neighbor sort of looked up and go, what, what are you doing? It’s like, Oh, I’m just taking the eggs to you know, cook up an omelet or something.

He goes, Oh man, that’s disgusting. Why don’t you just get it from the supermarket? What do you think the supermarket gets it from? Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, it’s scary. It is really scary, really scary. I think as more and more people become urbanized as more people retreat from the countryside into urban areas.

I know a lot of kids don’t have the opportunities to get out, to actually experience farmlands and experience. You know, I would coach I totally agree with you, John. I, yeah. And so that’s, that’s really the basis of, of my entire mission. It’s, you know, through podcasts like this with yourself, through social media, through expeditions, through giving talks running, running [00:35:00] events through companies like I go adventures and I guess my new little venture called city camping So I’d love to speak about it again a second, but you know, through these, all these things, I really hope to, to have a small impact on a very various, you know, on, on one person, if possible.

Cause I think that well I know that because it’s, you know, the outdoors has changed my life and changed my, my perspectives on life entirely. I think it can change everyone’s lives. Hmm. So city campaign, what, what is that? Oh, nice. So city campaign is a very exciting, it’s very simple, but I was totally struck by a statistic that I heard the other day that said that we spend 92% of our lives indoors.

But like me and you, you know, surrounded by straight lines and right. Angles and stuff, you know, pretty ordered. And I was [00:36:00] like, wow, terrifying. And I think that’s, that’s not good at all. And of course, in line with my mission to rewild humans to get us outside I created this thing called city camping and city camping is all about getting people to come and spend a night out under canvas under the stars.

And so we create totally secure pop up campsites in city parks and green spaces basically. And we’re running our first one in September, sorry, in in springtime next year in spring 2021 it’s spring salmon. And We, yeah, we’re popping up a campsite in the beautiful Zion park in central London.

It’s the largest privately owned park in central London. And so you can get to it for the tube and we’re basically [00:37:00] initially targeting kids. With, with a view to like expand, you know, other nights to other people. So, you know, for example, on the first three nights, we’ll be first three nights. We’ll be kids between 10 and 15.

The next three nights will be for adults and then the next two nights with the corporates or whatever. But firstly, we’re just targeting kids and going through schools to, to get kids between 10 and 15 to come and spend a single night. In a tent, which we all provide and to come and just kind of be part of nature for one night.

And for me, it was like, I don’t know about you, John, but have you ever, did you ever, do you remember, do you tell us, tell your audience about the first night that you spent in a tent? Can you, my, probably my first memory of campaign. Was probably not a good one. That was a massive storm in the night. I remember waking up [00:38:00] of which my parents were next to me when I went to sleep.

And when I wake up, no one was around. That was a huge storm coming in. And then I remember sort of waking up and then as I wake up. The wind has sort of taken hold of the tent and smarts ceiling was like here, and I can’t remember what it was, but it was some pole or something. Then just smashes me in the head.

I run outside, probably crying. Oh, no, John, you’re doing terrible for city camping. Let me tell you about mine.

My first experience of CPR in the garden and a 10 my dad didn’t want to sleep outside. So his tactic was to let us go to sleep. You know, we went to bed at seven ish, seven 30, eight o’clock and he basically to wait until nine and then get a hose. And pretend there was a storm so that we’d all run inside and he was like,

[00:39:00] you know, all of these memories are key. And I think there’s a large part of a large part of everyone. Initially children and kids who are missing out on. On this basic fund basically. And I think, you know, it’s going to be, it’s going to be basic fun. That’s that’s literally how I describe it. There’s nothing glamorous nothing.

It’s going to be basic. Beautiful fun. I think as a kid, I was always building dens and stuff, you know, in the playroom or whatnot, putting the two safe, big sofas together. So it creates a little under, Oh, a hundred percent. I saw that I’ve got that set up for me now that we’re you sleep at night. Yeah, but at nighttime, it just pooled around than it in my down during the day, get some paperwork done.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Good. And so with these adventures, because you will see did a pretty Epic one from [00:40:00] Greenland to Scotland, how did that trip come about? Nice. So, yeah, you’re absolutely right. I did that trip. How did that one come about? So a guy called Patrick Winston he read a book called searching for Finman by Norman Rogers.

And he was kind of like inspired by this book or like, And maybe it inspired is the wrong word. He was curious, but about this book and this book documented and Inuits man who in 1728, landed on the Northeast coast of Scotland. Right? He was alone. He was paddling a skin on bone kayak, carrying traditional Greenlandic hunting equipment, which needless to say, I hasten to add, you can go and see his kayak and his hunting equipment today.

In Aberdeen maritime maritime museum [00:41:00] is that definitely landed, right. There’s lots of doc, lots of documents that, that talk about these communities that people sort of Inuits descended. People arriving in Scotland in the sort of 1700 and. Three days later he died. But no one knows how or why, but it was believed that this particular person, this particular fin Matt, whether this particular, anyway, it came from Finmark he was called a fin man, because they believe he came from fin Mark in Northern Norway.

And the problem is that he was carrying traditional Greenlandic hunting gear. So we don’t believe he came from Northern Norway. We don’t believe he was from Finmark. We believe he came from Greenland. And so we set out it’s my teammate, Ali Hicks, and I. [00:42:00] Set out to other earth, this ancient myth and sort of add, add, add speculation, I guess.

Cause we weren’t, we couldn’t prove or disprove that he did or didn’t because we didn’t do it in like traditional hunting gear and a skin on bone seal kayak. Cause I think we would have died, but you know, we, we really like added speculation to the fact that he may well have made that journey by.

I have, I basically, we, we got an a, I mean, like more to it, but if we’ve got an, a kayak no, no, like it wasn’t really, the only addition we made to the kayak was district was to lengthen so that I could sleep down inside the cop, my cockpit. And it wasn’t any bigger, any faster. There was no sort of like not like an ocean rowing boat on ocean road, but where they have like sealed areas at the end of the boat.

Where they can get in out of them and stay dry. Cause I seal the capsules. We had none of that. There was genuinely just a kayak, which you [00:43:00] could buy from, you know, a sea cock go online and type in sea kayak. And that is what we had. And yeah, we extended it a little bit so that like I could stand quite tall.

I’m six foot four so that I could sleep down inside and underneath the, underneath, inside the skin, inside the tube. Yeah, we, we, we paddled from from Greenland to Scotland and that’s, that’s kind of it really. Okay. And so what were you doing sort of two hours on two hours off or were you yeah, so that’s quite a common thing, isn’t it for ROAS?

Yeah. Well, the problem for us is that we’re a kayak. We are much smaller and we can’t not paddle without having any stability out because we we’ve we’ve we rotate and you can’t have a stupid at one point and you can’t have stability and paddle at the same time. And it was also more importantly, Totally unsustainable for one [00:44:00] person to paddle a kayak because the car was just too heavy.

It would be, it wouldn’t be a good use of energy because as I’m sure you understand, but every single hole, every single, like a boat. A displacement boat, not, not a planing Hull, so planning how it goes up on top of the water and plants and goes very quickly. I displacement Harold travels through the water and travels very slowly with displacement holes, the whole shape.

Has a particular speed Hull speed, which travels that very easily. And if you want it to go any faster, you’ve got to put in a lot more energy and you don’t go much faster because you just end up moving more water. It doesn’t work very well. So all displacement holes have like a cruising speed as you, as we all think of it as crew, you know, you can, you, you pattern a little bit and you’re just, you, you get into a rhythm and the boats traveling at cruising speed.

Perfect. But if one person [00:45:00] slept getting to that cruising at one person paddled. Maintaining that cruising speed would take all of my effort and I’d be knackered by the end of two hours. And it wouldn’t be, it wouldn’t be able to do multiple days in it. So long as short, we both paddle at the same time and we both slept at the same time.

But of course, you know, I, again, it’s sort of hard thing to describe because we’re both sitting in the warmth and we’re comfortable and probably all of your listeners and watches are. But like, we were always wet. We couldn’t stand up. We couldn’t walk around. We were inside, you know, our cockpit. You can just about see the top of your thighs.

You couldn’t see your feet. When you slept at night, you just, you went down inside the cockpit and you like had to sleep in the coffin position. You couldn’t roll over. Couldn’t roll on your side. It was so small. It was so cramped. Going to the loo. Yeah, I got it. I think, I believe I’m guessing your audience they’re going to love.

[00:46:00] Well, maybe we won’t. I think that probably the type who will enjoy the loo chat go for is quite straightforward. Bottle PEs water over the edge. Getting from P number two is difficult because you’re in a very small space. And you’re wearing like baggy, not baggy Toby, you’re wearing like a dry suit. And bear in mind where I sit is also my pillow.

It’s my office. It’s my Lu. It’s my toilet. It’s everything. It’s everything. So the, the actual key is to make sure you don’t lose when you, when you drop kids off at school, right. It’s important. You don’t leave any kids behind. Cause that seats very see I’m sitting on is important. So basically we got a plate and with like little edges to keep the kids in and popped it on my pillow.

And you count like what’s [00:47:00] going on rough again. We’re expecting roughly this many kids at school. And then you kind of pull it out and put Chuck it, Chuck it in the sea, but believe me, it’s a proper maneuver to do it. And yeah, the only other problem is is that I was the, the, the rear paddler was a twin pack and Ali was approximately four free in front of me.

And I had prime view. I mean, front row seats, really, if that’s what you’re after of watching Ali. Take a crap. That must have been quite a, and that was what for six weeks? 66 days. Well, how many weeks? I don’t really know. So in terms of sleeping though, did you have sort of Chuck boys over the site to stabilize the kayak?

Has you slept. Yeah. So exactly. We looked at a whole load of things like we don’t at doing rigors. So we had the sort of what was effectively what was going to be our paddle. [00:48:00] And then we attach to the ends of our paddle floats. And then we put the paddle onto the deck in two places. And then you kind of got outriggers to keep you upright, like a tremor rang or something.

Yeah, I can try and run, but of course, the problem is one. It’s your paddle. That’s being used to, you’re putting a hot loads of stress through these two points on the boat. And if they break, if one of those points, you know, that’s attached to your kayak break, you’ve then basically got a hole in your only survival and your only, you know, structure.

We’re just going to keep you alive and vaguely dry. So that was really not wise move. So in the end, what we had was so simple, we had mastered from the top, from it, you know, on some dinghies, they have a float, especially on catamaran, like darts. They have a float on top of the mast and that’s to stop when they capsize that’s the stop.

The mast is [00:49:00] to stop them inverting. Cause of course they are a catamaran with two holes and when they infer, they’re very hard to get back up, right. Again. So th there’s a float on top of the mask, which stops it from going know, underwater keeps it like this when it’s capsized. And this mass, this mass float is basically like 40, and he’s like 40 liters of air with, with a straw.

And we attach a string to the bottom of it. And what we did was we took, we had four flights and two at the back two at the front. And. The two at the back. I obviously fixing the two at the front poly fixed, but basically what we did was we take one float and we’d pass the string and underneath the kayak.

Okay. And pull it so that the Mo the float went down to the water level, and then we tie it on this side. And then we did do that at the same. So float on this side, pass the string under the kayak, put it up till the flow, hits the water and then tie it on this side. And then you kind of got [00:50:00] like two floats, either side.

And that’s what we did, but that’s the one thing we never tested because I think really the truth be told. We were terrified to find out what, what the consequence could be was test what would happen, whether we could get out, whether we could escape the boat. If it capsized, when we received. I don’t think the answer would have been very pleasant and that’s probably why we, that’s why we never tested it because, you know, I think it would have been a mental thing then.

Good. Well, that’s Sydney quite the trip.

Yeah, people listening. I just like to sleep like in the coffin position every night for six weeks. I mean, they must be thinking what sort of entices you to find that enjoyable. Yeah. So just to be [00:51:00] clear, we we went from Greenland to Iceland and then we, around the outside, we had paddled a kayak around the outside of Iceland.

So we were sleeping on the beaches. Yeah. And then we went from Iceland to the Faroe islands. But of course, as you know, there’s big stretches of ocean in between these and it’s all or none at all of these legs from Greenland. I say all of them from Greenland to Iceland, never been kayaked from Iceland to the pharaohs had never been kayaked.

But from Ferris to Scotland had been kayaked. Before. But very like once or twice before. I think maybe once actually, but details, you know, still sleepy inside the boat is pretty, pretty horrendous and quite, and actually terrifying. You know, it’s like Chinese water torture where like there’s a drip, which just, and it’s rainy outside.

It just drips on your head and it’s hard to get sleep, but you know, what, what, what, what keeps me going back? What, what do I love about it? I might sound so weird and like really hard for you to understand, but I still would wake up in the morning [00:52:00] whilst kayaking, you know, and I mean, what all he take a shit in front of me and still I was, you know, incredibly grateful for the experience that I probably go as far as saying.

This many humans, maybe on the planet have ever experienced. Certainly there was no other human apart from Ali who had seen, I’ve seen the sites and views and saw the wildlife, met the people. You know, there’s just so many things which, and emotions and feelings, which I’ll never, ever, ever forget. And so many beautiful scenes and landscapes and vistas.

And I think that the reasons for it are endless and I can’t see any [00:53:00] other reason. I can’t see a reason why I would not do something similar. I’ll give you a free bit of advice. I will never cut across the North Atlantic ocean again. You know, I think, I think the risk profile. Was super narrow and like Ali and I were inherent.

We’re totally aware of this. Like the, the, the risks involved in car. He goes to the North Atlantic ocean of us. You know, it’s a, it’s a ferocious patch of water, which we cut across. And your margin for error is minuscule because you know, I’m paddling along. I’m fed water line warm. I’m fine. I’m alive. All good.

And the next second. You’d be upside down by a rogue wave fighting for your life. There’s no middle ground. There was no kind of like on another expedition, for example, you know, a car walking the longest, that’s the boy journey. Actually, if things kind of start to go wrong, you can sort of see it and hopefully bring it back.

[00:54:00] But actually this with the kayaking situation. You know, we were alone. We had no support vessel. It was again, check it out. It was red bull film deck, again, type into red bull or go into my, my Instagram or whatever, or Facebook and on my website even, and have a look. But you know, this, the margins for era was so, so, so fine.

And I think that we’re, I really do think we are, it was a bit of luck involved in it. And I maybe if you got a second, I’d maybe be able to tell you the story about our luck. Yeah, go for it. And so the whole idea of luck, I think isn’t to be relied on, of course, you know, but, but I, I, I also think there was someone must’ve been someone looking over us because.

As I said, we had nobody with us. We touched Iceland for the last time, touch the hard ground bath and paddle towards the horizon. We’re [00:55:00] off. Our next stop was where our next destination was into the middle of the ocean paddling across the patch of ocean called the devil’s dance floor. So called because it’s where the southerly flowing optic currents meet the northerly flowing Gulf stream or the ocean shallows become shallower.

And the S the surface like the sea state becomes horrendous. Sometimes

I sent for the last time, it was a very foggy day. Fog is incredibly disorientating, even when you like. On land. But let alone, when you’re at sea, when there is zero landmarks, there’s never zero like markings. It’s not trees or bushes or buildings, but you’re going to orientate yourself off in the fog.

It is totally disorientated. You feel like you’re paddling in circles and you have to trust your compass. You have to trust like, okay, I’m heading North now. Let’s keep going. Still heading North. I’m not doing circles. I sweat. Yeah. That is [00:56:00] like what this thing does to you. Can make you believe apparently in circles.

Anyway, the, we got about four days into this crossing. We were probably about. 70 miles off Iceland. So ISIS had long since disappeared. Faroe islands was another 400 miles, I think across. So, you know, we were probably just under a quarter of the way optimistic, but whatever. And we weren’t traveling as quick as we needed to, to be honest with you, we were like staring down the barrel of like rationing of, of doing everything we can to make sure we got to the safety of the beach of this 400 yard wide beach in the Faroes genuinely.

It was going to be a survival story. I think this crossing and our plan was to get on the back. Of a weather system. Now, the weather is obviously we were hugely [00:57:00] dependent on the weather for this kayaking journey because we’re so small. We have a freeboard, which is about three inches and our freeboard is basically the, the amount of the height you are above the water before the water starts to come into the boat.

But it wouldn’t cause we’ve got a splash deck on, but you know, like that’s how if we have a three more than three inches of water wave, it comes over the deck basically. And our plan was to get on the back of this the storm anyway, because we were traveling slower than we thought we got caught in a storm, or we were about to be.

And so morning of day three, I think the scene has been set morning of day three. It was very quiet. C almost definitely quiet, like kind of like. I mean, I can’t even make it quite here because I’ve got like a clock ticking, but like deafeningly silent. Ali just done his paperwork, dust bin for a poo, and it’s just [00:58:00] floated past me.

I’d offered some sort of feedback as to his constituency and how he used to chew his sweetcorn a bit more. And suddenly I hear the sound of an engine. And we’re 75 miles off shore. Right. It’s pretty nice. Not quite nice. I, yeah, there’s waves and we are, you know, our bodies are three foot tall off the water and like, we disappear behind every wave and I hear the sound says, Oh, can you hear that?

I just made it mentally out there. No one else. Can you hear that? And he’s like, yeah. Can you think of an engine? Anyway? It was a no Norwegian. It was a Icelandic fishing boat and They were just fishing right. Normally. And they happened to see us. And this comes up in the full length feature, a 52 minute documentary.

It is extraordinary like when one of their PR people saw us, which is so unlikely. You have no idea [00:59:00] how quickly, when you’re three foot above the surface, your head is suit up on the surface, the highest point of the kayak you disappear, you get on different wave patterns and suddenly you got. Yo you’re lost at sea so easy to happen as the fact that they saw us was America.

They came over to us. And this, this guy came out of the portal on the side there where they bring their fish in. It was a small fishy, but not particularly big, like I think 30, 40 foot long, not a huge one. This guy came out of this Icelandic guy. Right. And he looked like Thor, man. He like Jesus. He had like a beard that was like catching his shoe laces.

And he’s Icelandic and he goes, what are you dying like this bellows and it’s and the whole, like Jesus Christ, like Dumbledore, the worldly air, like moves and like looking at ourselves. And he was like, where are you from? [01:00:00] We’re like, he’s like, ah, makes sense. Anyway, he then said that it ended like the next words were very concerning and these guys are fishermen.

They’d been fishing in these waters for like nearly 30 years, I think, with the captain hat. And he said, you know, there was a storm coming. And yeah, he said that between 40 to 60 knots of wind. When does Kirsi, you know, it’s like, it’s, it’s what, it’s what stirs up the sea state. It makes it dangerous.

60 knots is a hurricane and they haven’t quite a lot at sea. We don’t understand. We don’t generally hear about them very often because it’s not important. It’s not gonna affect humans. So we don’t know about it, but there would happen a lot 60 nights, a hurricane and it’s guaranteed death in a kayak, basically.

Ali. And I were faced with the decision. They were like, you know, do you want [01:01:00] to come back with us? On, and I looked at each other and this is like our survival. He, this, this is like a guy telling us we’re going to die. Okay. And let’s see. Yeah, it’s extremely,

no I said to him, no, thanks. No, thanks for your help. We declined offer of their help. And the reason we did was because we believed in our team and we, we had made a decision to leave. When we left Iceland, we were not expecting this boat to turn up and offer us this solution. So we committed to our team back then.

We’d already made a decision. And I think there’s lots of notes of trust of teamwork, of, you know, how important every part, every person isn’t a team there, but that’s not for today. But also like that commitment, that dedication to our cause that there’s lots of notes in there, but I’d love to speak about more often, but I might have to send you [01:02:00] an invoice, but only, and I said no to our only chance of survival fact.

And we paddle on towards the Faroe islands and the fishermen went back to their fishing and they genuinely believed that they were going to be the last people to see us alive. And they said this to, to the cameras, you know, afterwards they’re like we thought they were going to die. We thought we were going to be picking up a boat and looking for bodies later that day.

So they were nice. The fish we paddle on towards Iceland and disappear again, gone, you know, miles apart that maybe that fear for three or four hours had passed and awfully well, and I were cracking on and, you know, Faroe islands was our net is 400 yard patch, a beach, which is, you know, yeah. As I said, 400 kilometers away we’re aiming for tiny, really.

Three hours [01:03:00] later, we heard the sound of an engine. Again, they’d come back to look for us, potentially trying to find like the boat, the upturn boat and dead bodies possibly, but they’d come back to find us and America. Once again, they found us miracle miraculous in an ocean is a huge, it’s huge. I, the fact they found us once is a miracle.

The fact they’d bound as twice is. I dunno, there must have been some sort of divine intervention in here for those of you being at sea you’re. No, it is a huge blades. It’s huge and features. They found us. And they said to us, we spoken to the coast guard and they really wanted us to come in. I want you to come with us and we really want you to come with us.

This is your last chance. So Ali and I said, can you wait five minutes please? And they said, of course kindly. And so we called our weather forecasters again, and we had a, an American, we had a Scotsman and we had a Welshman. All right. And we said to them, look, you can see the weather, you know, everything [01:04:00] about how fast we can travel, you know, everything about how much we can manage in terms of weather.

Would you get on the boat or not? And the yank was like, yeah, dude, it’s, it’s looking pretty bad to be honest, much worse than we thought it was going to be. So I value I, I get on the boat, probably a good idea. Right? So that’s three people who want us to go on the boat. Oh, five. Scotsman was like, Hey pal, it’s looking pretty bad.

Eight. They’re like, I think you should get on the boat. I did. I did. I’m sorry. I’m very sorry. We made a mistake. I’m not quite sure where it was from. Oh, the pool area. And then the Welshman from card. It goes, Oh, no boys. Don’t you already, can I go? And it’d be all right. Anyway. Anyway. We, we had five decisions for the ones that to get on the boat.

And so we got on the boat and we lived with, we had our kayak on the roof and we lived with the [01:05:00] fishermen. They had luckily out of crane on the roof. So they’ll actually just craned it onto the roof, you know, big, old boat. And we lived with the fishermen for the next week, catching Cod from Icelandic fishing waters for delaying I think 10 miles of fishing line, 20,000 hooks each day, long lining catching card for British supermarkets.

I mean, one experience. Well, and believe the experience they dropped us back in Iceland, and then we paddled on and landed in Scotland. We say to them, but you know, like what an experience and what a story of luck and of, I don’t know, divine intervention call it what you like good fortune. I have no idea what it was, but I think, I think yeah, I will maintain to, to the day that I die, that they did not rescue us.

Because what were they going with this? Because, Oh yeah, [01:06:00] because we will never know what would have happened if we carried on we would never have known whether we would have made it or not. So you know, whether that was the right decision or the wrong decision to get on the boat. I don’t know.

All I can tell you. Is that getting on the boat was a correct decision. It wasn’t the correct decision, but it was a correct decision. And I think again, dangerous send you an invoice, but there’s lots of chat about like decision-making and how it looks and all of that. But yeah, God, what a story, especially to spend a week you know, what’s Ben Fogel’s program life for the wild or something where he goes, and those sorts of really busy.

Yeah. Okay. You had that experience for a whole week catching Cod, right? I mean, I was today showed me, we had a few, there’s a few more of these experiences that happened on that trip. Genuinely a few more, but I mean, remarkable, remarkable. [01:07:00] What a story. So there’s a part of the show where we ask the same five questions to each guest each week.

With the first, with the first one being, what’s the one bizarre thing that you crave or miss from home when you’re out doing these expeditions?

What’s the biggest thing that I crave and miss. No, I th I think I, I think I miss and therefore appreciate how simple and straightforward life. Yeah. Certainly when you’re up in the arts again, it’s pitch black and you’re like in all the drills and the discipline of trying to keep your kit as dry as possible from sweat like sleepy inside a plastic bag, and you, you know, everything’s frozen, like my army, there’s so much more like I could speak for hours about this, but.

Like the discipline, the constant focus that you need to survive on expeditions. I [01:08:00] think one of the things that I appreciate more than anything and therefore, probably miss is just how simple and straightforward our lives are today. Yeah, I got up this morning. I got up this morning and I, I bet even thought about, you know, getting out of bed, walking into the bathroom, having goes to the loo, brushing my teeth, putting some clothes on, making my bed going downstairs, having breakfast.

I was like, this is, it was a dog. I put the catalog on. Maybe it’s like it had a bowl of cereal. You know, and then turn my computer on. I have thought nothing I’ve done. I’ve let my brain engaged zero, zero, nothing as I think, of course I miss like friends and family. And of course I miss all the niceties and the delicious food and that, and the and And everything else.

I think probably that everyone else would say they miss. I course I have that. I miss that. But I think at its core and its [01:09:00] base at its most basic, it’s just how simple life is. How sort of we have life, which on the flip side leads me to appreciate where I am on expedition, because life is also simple here because all I’ve got to worry about is what I’m fed.

Watered and warped. And so like, there’s, I’m going to worry about the wifi connection, how many meters that day, or you know, how many podcasts I’ve got to record or whatever. Oh, how many likes I’ve got on Instagram? You know, so what that sort of, what I’ve just created, there is a situation where I’m very grateful for being on expedition because it’s very simple, but also because I actually, what I love about being home is how simple it, so you’re kind of like quite weird, but I hope I’ve explained that well is I really do miss how simple life can be in both situations.

And I think it leads me [01:10:00] into a very deep appreciation and gratitude. For everything that I have when I’m on expedition or whether I’m at home, I think with is by doing these sort of trips and expeditions, you suddenly realize that you don’t need much. You ju you can live such a sort of simple life when you’re back here.

I mean, on expeditions, you need a few little gadgets here and there, but sometimes just the simple things that make such a huge difference. All right with you there. What is your favorite adventure book? My serious answer would be a book the Western end of the world as a girl. That’s God’s amazing book. [01:11:00] The amusing one will be like the adventure of the curious George, have you got a Teddy bear for us later? I could get it. It’s up in my room January. I’m not lying to you. We we’ll get him at the end.

Okay. What is your inspirational figure? Growing up? Interesting question. I, I don’t think I really have like one inspiration. Maybe that’s a irregular thing to say, but I don’t think that I have one person who I look up to and say, I want to be like him. I said, I look at their back up and say, I want to be like him.

I think we look up to and people irrespective of their stature, whether they’re the King or queen or whether they’re not what I look up to in people [01:12:00] is finding that is finding fulfillment. And that probably sounds very wholesome, but you know, I look up to people who, who found like satisfaction and happiness, cause actually that’s really at the end of the day, What’s really important.

You know, your health, your happiness, and I they’re all so inextricably linked that, you know, even if I didn’t want to I don’t really know how to, how to say this, but whatever end of the spectrum, you’re out, whether you’re a King or queen or whether you, whether your you know, picking up horse poo for a living, like if it is what you love then, and you found satisfaction in that and it, and it, and it makes you happy and you found a balance in life.

I think you should pursue that with everything you’ve got. And those, the people that I look up to. So you’re absolutely right. You’re happy. Correct. If I look up to that person who picks up who’s for sure. I look [01:13:00] up to that person who, who is in banking and is happy and earning all that money and has got it sorted and has found that balance.

I look up to both of them, because I think actually the banker is often more unhappy than the person who picks up who’s for a living Jenny. And I think we can find quite a few cases of that, you know, and it’s not linked to the size of that. Well, it is linked to the size of their wallet because they obviously have different size wallets, metaphorically speaking.

But I think finding that that balance is what I would look up to and respect without having to name anybody in particular.

What about favorite Quate or motivational quote? I’ve got heaps of those, but I’ve got heat today’s meeting. Well, rail rail them off rail them off. Well, we’ve spoken a lot today about. Oh, wow. A lot. We still got a bit today about failure. So one of my favorites is Winston Churchill and [01:14:00] he says that success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiastic and I’m enthusiastic.

So that’s a good one. We also spoken quite a lot today about sort of. Happiness and the balance, and I think maybe living life to the full. Yeah, exactly. And I think this has been my last one I give you today, but it’s it’s a, it’s a fabulous quote. And I think it really speaks to me and my values and like maintaining that sense of curiosity and love of lending, the sort of love of life, if you like.

Which, which I, I thoroughly endorse and it’s a quote by wow. I don’t know whether it was him, but Hunter Thompson and You said that life shouldn’t be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a, in a pretty and like perfectly [01:15:00] formed body instead, instead rather it should be a journey to the grave where you skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke thoroughly used up totally worn out and proclaiming what a ride.

And that really, for me, like the whole concept of skidding into my grave, broadside is like, I, you know, I might even call it, call my book, like skidding in broadside or something like that. Cause is I, you know, I have no intention as this, this guys. I don’t want to arrive at perfectly in pretty, you know, I want to like feel every day, like another quote coming out here, but I want to fill every day.

Like, it’s my last, because, because one day, I don’t know which day, but one day I’m going to be right. Yeah, I think that was Steve jobs. Yeah. Yeah, I, yeah, that, that’s a good quote. I like that. This is a good thing, as you were saying [01:16:00] that when you sort of said perfectly formed, I sort of, one of my favorite quotes is actually Hannibal Lecter, where he says that the scars are to remind us that the past was very real.

It’s like the more scars you have, they will tell a story. But I’m not sure I’ve handled the actors sort of guy.

Yeah, exactly. Everyone’s like, Oh, want this one? And this one, you know people listening are always keen to travel and go on these sort of big grand adventures. What’s the one thing you would recommend them to do to get them started.

My one piece of recommendation is keep it simple, stupid, without doubt, without doubt, if you want to get started, keep it simple. You know there’s, there’s lots of advice about sort of funding and not trying to go big and go gray and break records in day one. Keep [01:17:00] it simple, like, you know, go out, do what makes you happy, make sure you enjoy it.

And build from that. There’s no need to be a big grand things. Fast gun, walk up a Scottish Hill if you hate it. Well then probably don’t bother going and trying to break a record there. Okay. Start simple. Start small, but make sure you start. Yeah, I agree. And finally, what are you doing now? And how can people follow your adventures in the future?

Yeah, cool. What’s going on really? For me, like whether it’s in the adventure world, whether it’s more like business focused around city camping, or I go adventures or bullets, gin or, you know, me giving talks or representing brands. So there’s, there’s like loads of stuff going on, which is really exciting.

All singing to the same, like rewilding humans. And I think what, where you can follow me, first of all, online is a great way to follow me on Instagram. [01:18:00] I’m proud of where I’m most active. Probably not so much on Twitter and those some places in Facebook, but yeah, jump on Instagram. I’m all there. I have a website too.

You know, in terms of what’s next, what I’m most excited about next is city campaign. I think that’s gonna be really fun. And I hope that we get lots of lots of kids this year for our, for our week in the spring summer of 2021. And we, we, we sort of display a great proof of concept so that we can take it all over the UK.

So that’s next other, other expeditions that were coming out. In Juco, I’m about to get in sail sailboat. We’re meant to be sitting across the landscape, but we had to switch that one and not set across the Atlantic this time. So it’s all up in the air, really on the travel side of things, but who knows, who knows you better follow along, you better follow on, stay tuned.

Didn’t you? That’s right. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today and yet check out Georgia, his Instagram and website, and. [01:19:00] You can follow his adventures for the next future and city camping. That’s the next one? Yeah, city campaign. I’ll go adventures. Just check it out. Have a great time.

Keep smiling. Amazing. Thank you so much. Pleasure. Thank you for having me on well we’ll catch up for a beer soon. I hope.

EP.011: Andrea Mason

Andrea Mason (Endurance athlete)

Andrea Mason is a passionate sports person with an extreme sense of adventure. Her philosophy is everyone can “create your own epic”.
In September 2019, she completed what most believed was an impossible challenge; swimming 34km across the English Channel, Cycling 900km across France and then climbing Mt Blanc – all in just 4 days and 20 hours. Exactly one year later, she successfully completed the Mt Blanc Triple Crown. Swimming 38Km around the perimeter of Lac Annecy, cycling the gruelling Tour Du Mont Blanc and running 170km around one of the most challenging trails runs in the world, the Ultra-Trail Du Mont Blanc – all in just 4 days, 23 hours and 40 mins. On this week’s podcast, we talk about her journey to these adventures and the struggles she has had to overcome. As well as her passion for her new charity.

Andrea’s Website

Andrea’s Instagram

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Transcript of our Conversation

Andrea Mason

[00:00:00] AndreaMason: I was never getting any closer to that lighthouse. I thought that was the light that was at Cap gray. So I’m looking constantly at this light and when I should have been following the boat that was heading. Two category. So I, in my head, I was just never, ever getting any closer and thinking I was in a head current and all the while I was really, really close

I suppose the best place to start is how did you get into the sort of Epic adventures? What sort of really triggered it for you? I think so I’ve always been super sporty from, from a young age. I’ve always swam. I’ve always ran. [00:01:00] When I was four years old, I was thrown into a swimming pool and swam 5,000 meters on my fourth birthday.

So I think I would be, I would be lying to people if I said it isn’t something that. I’ve always had a passion for and, and done in terms of endurance type activities because swimming 5,000 meters on when you’re four is probably very similar to the types of things I do now as, as a grown adult. But I did take quite a, quite a break from I sport between school and university and after that and really, I only got back into big insurance type events after I had been sick.

I had, I suffered a lot from endometriosis and I was diagnosed [00:02:00] in 2017 with cervical cancer. And I wanted to do something. While I was recovering, I wanted to be able to have a goal and a target and it needed to be something crazy. It needed to be something that really. Challenge that I was challenging myself.

It couldn’t be something that I had done previously like triathlons or an iron man. It, and that’s meant with no disrespect because an iron man is, is crazy. But I needed to have something to really focus on. And I think for us, it was I wanted to have something that nobody had ever done before.

And my husband and I, we were just chatting about what could I do? What, what haven’t I done? What have I [00:03:00] always wanted to do? I’ve always wanted to swim the channel, but people have done that before I’ve live in Chamonix part of the year. I want to climb Mont Blanc, but people have done that. And then Carl basically said, well, why don’t you just do them both in cycle in between.

And I think for me, that’s yeah, that’s really where this sea to summit journey started from. Yeah, I have to confess your C2 summit. I, I think I really wanted to do it a couple of years ago and I sort of had other things sort of pending, but it just, it looks like such an Epic trip, you know, to swim the channel.

I mean, sure. I imagine for you, it was incredible. And. Also incredibly challenging at the same time. Did you find, because you sort of build yourself up and you obviously, like you said, the cycling in [00:04:00] between was a sort of afterthought. Did you think was the cycling just as hard as the swimming and the, the climb.

It was in fact it was for me, probably the, the hardest part. I went into it thinking as crazy as it sounds, I went into it thinking the cycle was going to be my recovery. That I I’ll swim, I’ll swim across the channel. And then I’ll have 900 K to recover on my bike because it’s it wasn’t about speed.

Yes. I had a limit that I wanted to do it in, but it wasn’t about speed on the bike, but in actual fact it turned out to be. Hell on earth, the bike, because a lot of it was a lot of, it was in the dark. In the middle of the night. I was cycling down a lot of canals on my own. I’m imagining all sorts of things coming out of the trees and grabbing me yeah, it wasn’t, I didn’t love the ride.

[00:05:00] Do you think that was may because you might’ve sort of underestimated it, you sort of, because you’ve built, you’ve always want to do the swim. You’d always want to do the climb. And the cycling was sort of an afterthought. And so your mindset was very much in those two bits, those two components. And then suddenly the cycling was very much like, Oh yeah.

I’ll just say cool. It’s fine. We’ll see how it gays. I always find when you, you underestimate something, then that’s when it, yeah, I, it’s probably very true. I think in my head I had. I hadn’t underestimated it because I had done a run of it before. So I did recky the whole bite route so that I knew exactly where I was going to go.

I knew, you know, how, what my average speed would be, and I try to keep it very real. But I hadn’t just got out of the swim and I was doing it in the Reckie during the day. [00:06:00] Because my, I hadn’t ever planned to start the swim at night. And because of the way the weather turned out, I had to start the swim leg across the channel.

I think it was six o’clock. So it meant my whole swim was in the dark. So then my plan. Turned on its head a little bit, because once I get out of the swim, I had to rest and then I was effectively getting back on the bike in the dark. And I hadn’t, I hadn’t factored that, doing everything through the night, really into the plan.

So maybe, yeah, I underestimated that bit. I, it was interesting. You said, did you think that your diagnosis in cancer was a sort of trigger? I always find, Oh, well you always hear stories. I, one that comes to mind is Lance Armstrong, but I know people sort of close to me who were sort of diagnosed and they [00:07:00] sort of hit a switch in their mind that subtly, they have to.

They suddenly want to live. They sort of feel like they’ve been doing just ticking things over in their heads, and then suddenly they have this diagnosis and sort of propels what they’re sort of being putting off for so long to the forefront of what they want to do. Was that similar to what you had in some ways?

Yes, but I think for me it’s more about my. My coping strategy. At any point in my life where there’s been something where I’m faced with head-on with a challenge or I’m, you know, I’m, I’m faced with something that you know, pushes me. That makes me think I then always counteract that with. Doing something more, if that makes sense.

So I, yeah, I, I had this [00:08:00] diagnosis and I knew that I wouldn’t let that define me and that I needed to prove to myself more than anyone. I don’t really ever feel like I have to prove anything to do anybody else, but I have this something instilled within me that. I have to face things head on and I have to beat whatever it is.

And I’ve always had that. I think that’s something that I’ve just been born with. Yeah. I know. I sort of agree. And so. With that sort of swimming the channel, doing the route for anyone listening, maybe going to sort of, bit of detail about the sort of route and the places you saw. Yeah. So the swim obviously started in Dover.

So the swim across the channel is from Dover to Cali. It’s [00:09:00] 34 kilometers as the Crow flies, but in actual distance, I swam, I think about 41 kilometers, but you always say it’s 34, it’s 34 because you have different tides and different currents that are. Either slowing you down and pushing you off course, or in some cases you have a current behind you, that is, that is pushing you forward.

Initially my plan was normally you start just staff one hour after high tide in the morning. So you would normally start around eight, nine o’clock and my swim, I had factored to swim between 12 and 15 hours. Which was you know, a good estimate for me. But unfortunately the weather when I started or the weather window, cause you get given a one week weather [00:10:00] window to swim the channel.

And I was my weather window. Wasn’t looking amazing. And I also had to take into account the weather window for climate Montblanc. Because there was too logistical, whether nightmares one for getting across the channel and one for the client, because you also need good conditions for the summit in Montblanc.

And I had to make a decision to start in a weather window at six o’clock at night. So I. Very quickly had to change my mindset to just be swimming in the dark, which was very different because it’s not something that I had necessarily prepared myself for. I hadn’t, I’d done one or two nights swims, but not with currents and not with the waves and not as, certainly not for as long as I was going to be in the water for.

[00:11:00] So. I started, the start was amazing. The weather was great. It was nice and flat. It was, it was, yeah, it was really ideal conditions. And then it started to get dark quite quickly. And within the third hour, I was really beginning to have all those thoughts in my head of what am I doing? Could I, could I not have just picked something slightly?

Easier than this. This is crazy. And I was, I think because it, it got dark. And normally you have, when you’re swimming in open water, particularly when you’re swimming the channel, you always have a point of reference. And a lot of people say swimming, the channel is in two parts, you swim half, and you can always see the cliffs of Dover behind you.

And. The other half, you can always see Cali in front of you, but [00:12:00] because it was dark, all I could see was this little green light on the boat. That was going up and down, up and down. It wasn’t a fixed point of reference. So I got very, very seasick and I was throwing up for maybe four or five hours. Couldn’t keep anything down and I was just having to keep swimming and just, and it, yeah, it wasn’t, it wasn’t pleasant.

I was just keeping one arm in front of the other and, and keep going until I got to the end. I did, I did quite well though. I’d promise myself that I wasn’t going to throw my toys out of the prom during the swim. I was going to keep it together during the swim. And I got to, I didn’t know, but I’d got to within an hour, I was only an hour or so away from the finish.

And I started to get a little bit frustrated because I thought I was in a head current and I kept asking my support guys. [00:13:00] I know I’m in a head current, when’s it going to stop? Just tell me when, when it’s going, when I’m going to get out of this. And they kept saying, you’re not, you’re not just focused, watch, focus on the boat, follow the boat.

And I kept swimming. I was, and then through then I, yeah, I had a bit of, a bit of a hissy fit and I was only five minutes from the end. So I, I threw my toys out of the pram. Well, and truly, and I was five minutes later. I was standing up on category. Good. Did you know, did you, I imagine when you had your sort of fit, did you know that you were so close or?

I didn’t know. That was the frustrating part because I was, for some reason I was fixated on a light that turned out to be a lighthouse. That I wasn’t supposed to be following. And the, my perspective was I was never getting any closer to that lighthouse. I [00:14:00] thought that was the light that was at cap gree.

So I’m looking constantly at this light and when I should have been following the boat that was heading. Two category. So I, in my head, I was just never, ever getting any closer and thinking I was in a head current and all the while I was really, really close, but the support guys, I wouldn’t tell me that I was that close.

And they wouldn’t for a good reason because there’s been a lot of people that swim the channel. And there’s just, before you get to cap gree, The tide changes. And if you get caught in that tide change, it can add another three or four hours onto your swim. And that can happen within a five, 10 minute period.

So all they were concentrating on was telling me to keep my head down, push, put, you know, just keep swimming because [00:15:00] I was within. Five minutes of heading that tie change, and then it could have been another three, four hour swim for me. So I was so close, but it could have been so far if I hadn’t have just, if I’d have kept, kept putting my head up and moaning constantly, then it would have been a different story.

So you finished that at sort of five, six in the morning? Yeah, it was. Five. It was just after five because the swim in the end took me 10 hours, 57. Which yeah. Was faster than, than I thought I was going to swim, which was good. So I, I finished and I, you basically, you have to swim to land and then you have to swim back to the boat.

Because you’re not allowed to just get out on land because you have to go back to Cali and go through passport control. You’re not, you’re not allowed to just hop out [00:16:00] and get on your bike. So yeah, that’s sort of how I was imagining that, but yeah, of course I imagined it when I first planned it in my head, I was just swimming, swimming to the land.

I’d hop out. Somebody would be there ready with my bike. I’d get on my bike. It’s a black, a proper race, like quickly get up. So I got to the end and then you touch basically you touch the rocks, get out on land, and then you had to, I had to swim back the boat. Can’t come that close. So the boat was probably.

Maybe 500, 600 meters away from land. So then I had to swim back to the boat and and true story. I, the whole way I swam the whole way there, didn’t get stung by a single jellyfish. And in that 500 to 600 meters back to the boat, I got stung three times. So I didn’t get stung once until, until I’d [00:17:00] actually finished the swim and going back to the boat.

I honestly think once you sort of got on to land to then suddenly to have to turn around and. Swim 600 meters that must have felt like the longest 600 meters. It does it. It’s crazy. Just how your mind perceives things when you’ve, when you finish something and you think it’s finished and then you’ve got to get back to the boat.

Wow. And so you went through, did you rest after that or was that, were you straight on the bike cycling? No. So I. Once I got back onto the boat, it’s actually from where cap Grier’s to the port to Cali port, it takes about an hour on the boat. So I was able to just have just refuel a little bit on the boat.

And, and an actual fact, I, I fell asleep on the boat and that’s probably about the only sleep I had. Throughout the [00:18:00] rest of the challenge of any yeah. Of any decent sleep anyway. So I, I slept the whole way to the port. And then once we’d gone through passport control and got out, then I did have I think we’re six hours rest because when you do a marathon or a long distance swim, There’s a, there’s quite a big risk that you can get fluid on your lungs because you’re swallowing so much water, particularly in turbulent waters, like the English channel.

So the, you know, the medical guidance is always to check that you haven’t got any rattling on your chest and it takes a while for that to set in. And if you do have that, you can cause yourself to drown internally. So it’s never, ever recommended that you do such a big [00:19:00] swim and then do something straight afterwards.

I think normally they mean by doing something straight afterwards, going for a little walk to the shop. Not getting on your bike and cycling 900 K. But so I did, we, we we had our camper van, so that’s how we, we manage the rests and the pit stops and things. So I got in the camper van had some food rested and then six hours later, I was up and on the bike.

So, was it just you and your husband sort of supporting each other or was there a big team around it? So I had, I did have a team I don’t ever do any of this alone too much. Obviously I do the swim and the bike and the, the actual physical elements. But I do, I do have a really good support team [00:20:00] around me.

This one in particular, I had. A slightly bigger team, but it was more media. So it was, it was media and the film crew. So there were, there were quite a lot of people following which made it Mitch made it fun because there was always somebody there, there was always I was always looking out for a camera on the road.

It, it gave me something to focus on a little bit, but primarily it’s it’s myself and car. We’re we yeah. Manage the logistics between us. He he’s in the van making sure that all my food’s prepared when I get to the stop. And then, yeah, it’s, it’s mostly just myself and car. Yeah, I suppose having all these people around sort of taking pictures, filming was sort of encouragement because you’re sort of there and you don’t want to have the [00:21:00] picture of you just sort of slacking off just as you get round the corner, just putting like a really sad face.

Just sort of there smiling. I di I don’t well call cat and say into me because there were some times where we would get somewhere and it was just. It would just be me and him. And I would have a bit of a meltdown and there’d be tears streaming. I don’t want to go down this canal again. I can’t see the aliens are getting me.

And he, there was a couple of times where he would say to me, Why don’t you do this on camera? They’re not seeing the not good. You do know, they’re not going to be able to produce a film without any of these moments in it. Everyone who washes the film, you going to be like, wow. I mean on rail, it look so easy.

Yeah. I di I don’t tantrums caught on camera. There were, luckily they, in the end, I couldn’t, I [00:22:00] couldn’t hide it anymore. So there were definitely some tantrums caught on camera. Sick going down France, you went from Kelly. Did you go down sort of to Dijon then? What’s the other Dole sort of down that way and then crossover and Brett breasts breasts.

Yes, the, yeah. Sort of less on Lake Geneva? No I didn’t. Yes, no, I did. Sorry. Yeah, my came, I came up over the juror. Down in to Geneva and then up through to Chamonix. Yep. Through Albertville, no. I went, I stayed on the back roads. You went just before Annecy. You went up that mountain past. No. So no, you’re right through Albertville.

Yeah. Yeah. [00:23:00] So throughout, but they’ll then Banville clues, so launch and then up, up and over. Yeah. Be a beautiful scenery around there. It’s amazing. The whole, the whole bike leg was really stunning. Well, it was stunning when I did the recky and I did it in daylight this time, but the actual challenge, I wasn’t quite sure where I was at any moment in time.

I don’t think apart from the last leg, the last leg home was amazing because that is where it’s. It’s beautiful. And. That leg happened to be in the daylight, which was good. And so once you got to Chamonix, was it again sort of straight off the bike into your crampons and straight up or no. So I, once I got to Chamonix, I had another rest.

I had eight hours planned. [00:24:00] So the schedule was because I was targeting to do it within five days. I had a very, very precise schedule of where I was having the rest stops, how long those rest periods were going to be. So on the bike, for example, I’d broken it, broken it down into six stages and each stage was approximately seven hours.

Riding and then four to five hours recovery. And in that four to five hours, that’s where I would need to eat and sleep and have a change. And then, then get back on the bike. And the same was when I got to, to Chamonix. So I had a eight hour recovery where, because I knew for me the, the mountain piece, although we live in Chamonix, I’m not a mountain era.

That was going to be the most challenging part for me. I [00:25:00] was petrified. It wasn’t the, the swim and the bike as hard as they were. I didn’t have fear. I didn’t have fear about those. I knew I knew I could do it, but the, the mountaineering piece I’d really only ever put crampons on my feet. Once or twice beforehand as practice runs, I’d, I’d been out and I’d been doing a lot of high mountain things.

And I’d obviously done all my glacier training and things like that, but it’s not something that I I’d been out and done a lot of. So I knew that I needed to be slightly recovered. To start because I was starting from the Valley floor as well. So typically when people climb Mont Blanc, they’ll do it over two days.

They take the train partway up and then they start at the train and [00:26:00] then they’ll hike up to the Ghouta huts and then they’ll stay, they’ll have a rest or stay overnight in the Ghouta heart. To a climatize and then they’ll, they’ll go for the summit, but I did it from the Valley floor. So I didn’t take the train.

I hiked up to where people normally get off the train and then just continued the whole way we, we did it in, we did it in one go. So I knew to be able to do that, that I needed to have that, that rest period factored in, in Chamonix before it took off. Yep. And what was, would you say the, what were some of the highs from that sort of trip?

Did you find sort of moments of joy? Oh, there were, and there were lots completely the opposite. Yeah, I think that the best parts for me were randomly. [00:27:00] Getting hot chips brought to me in the middle of the night on the bike. When I was in a phase where I was really not in a good place, I was, I just come off one of the canals and I was hungry and cold.

And A colleague of mine who had amazing it was supporting on, on route, just in terms of watching and driving along. He appeared out of nowhere in the middle of France at one o’clock in the morning with a portion of hot chips. That, that was definitely one of the biggest highlights on, on the bike.

Also. I think along that theme, it’s just the, the amazing support that I had from people during you know, my parents, they were there and they were there, they were following along in the car, getting lost all the time. And so some of that was, was quite [00:28:00] funny. And just getting messages of encouragement from people along the way.

And. Then on the climb in particular, for me, there’s a, there’s a, a part that I was dreading and that was going across the grand core where there’s just a very short section where there’s a lot of, it’s quite renowned. If you look it up, when you’re you summit in Montblanc, but where it can be quite dangerous because there’s a lot of rock fall.

And I had never, I’d never been across there. So getting across there was. An absolute relief. Once I got across there, I knew I’d be able to make it to the summit. So that was that was a huge, huge highlight. Well, so yeah, I imagine going down those canals at sort of late at night and then a good plate of hot chips is it’s just those little things.

Sometimes when you’re doing these trips, there [00:29:00] makes such a huge difference. And for anyone listening, they sound so mundane and so basic, but when you’re in that sort of. Mindsets. It is just those little things that sort of acts of generosity and kindness, which just go so far. It is absolutely. And I think also on the penultimate leg of the bike, I also had, I knew it was going to be one of the hardest stages because it was the biggest mountain climb stage of, of the bike.

And. Again, because of the way the time is worked out, it was in the middle of the night. And I ha I wasn’t expecting anybody to come out and support me on that leg. And I had two good friends from Chamonix who drove down and actually rode that leg with me as well, which I wasn’t expecting. And it just [00:30:00] made, made the world of difference.

And I, because you’ve, I mean, it’s just sounds like it was sort of one hardship after the other what’s in the back of your mind, sort of just kept you going sort of when times were really tough, you know, that sort of time when. You’re swimming and throwing up for five hours. Was there any sort of moment where, you know, I imagine you’ve worked so hard for this, so in your mind, it’s not, but what sort of motivates you to sort of just keep going what’s in the back of your mind that sort of pushes you through and that is that voice encouraging you on?

Yeah, so I think, I think for me, particularly for the sea to summit challenges is. Yeah, I, I have this platform that I’m using to promote awareness of endometriosis and encourage young [00:31:00] women and girls to have their cervical smear tests and having been through both of them, both conditions myself. That is always in the back of my mind of, you know, I’ve started this.

So there’s no way I’m not going to finish. It’s just, yeah, there’s just, no, I don’t even know. Give myself that there’s no option. It’s I, I will finish this, whether I’m throwing up, whether I’m you know, exhausted whether you know, my body just can’t go any further. I’ve learned from doing this, that it always can go further.

So I never give myself that, that option. And I’m always thinking about why I’m doing it. You know, one always for myself, because I love doing these things and I love pushing my own limits, but also to encourage other people to get out there and do similar [00:32:00] things and promoting awareness of endometriosis and cervical cancer.

Amazing. And what was the feeling like when you were standing on top of mom, bla. It was, it was awesome. It was, it was really, really just get there and know that, that I finished and that I was at the top was absolutely amazing, but, and there was a big, but I still had to get down. So for me, I actually get, although, cause my whole challenge was sea to summit.

So it finishes at the top. It always finishes at the top or at the end and in the, the one that I did this year. But in that one, particularly I, I had to get back down the mountain and that petrified me to be honest, because I was so I knew how tired I would be. And [00:33:00] it’s, it’s tech, it’s not super technical, but it’s dangerous.

You know, if you’re, I I’ve been by that point, I’d been on the go for nearly five hours with very, very limited sleep. I really struggled to sleep throughout the whole challenge, even though I’d factored rest periods into it. I just couldn’t switch my mind off my body off. And I, I really, really struggled to get the sleep that I needed.

So I knew that I was going to have to really concentrate. I didn’t want to get to the top and then. Fail coming back down because I couldn’t cause I couldn’t get back down because I was tired or whatever it might be, but I. I had looked at other options and looked again and helicoptered off the top, but couldn’t do that because of the time of the year and a helicopter can’t land from the French side, you’d have to go down onto the Italian side.

I [00:34:00] heard ’em looked at getting flown off the top with a paraglider. But we couldn’t, we couldn’t find anybody that would be, that would hike up because obviously they have to go up to be able to fly off. And then they, you just can’t with the conditions. You can’t really predict whether it’s going to be good enough to fly.

But when I got to the top, there were two, there were two paragliders stood at the top and in my head, I was like, Oh, Carl’s done it. He hasn’t told me, and he’s got somebody to fly me off at the top. I just, as I was approaching the summit, so I’d convinced myself that they were there to fly me off the top so that I didn’t have to walk down just as I got to the top, they flew off.

I was devastated. So I, I think in summary, that was, it’s a whole mixed bag of emotions when I got to the summit, because I knew I’d finished. I was excited. I [00:35:00] you know, absolutely overwhelm the, that I’d managed to do it, but I still had a long way back to get back down to be able to actually celebrate with the people that were around and wanted to.

To experience a celebration with me. I think that that’s a, what a lot of people always forget is when you get to the top, I think we had Judy stir on episode five, who climbed Everest. And a lot of the time he sort of said that people die walking down Everest rather than climbing to the top. You know, you’re sort of hardship of getting to the top, having the feta, you sort of switch off.

And that’s when it becomes quite dangerous. Yeah. And mom blight is a substantial mountain to climb. Yeah, I feel very sorry to go to the top to see those paragliders suddenly shoot off. Oh, it was [00:36:00] devastation. It went from, it went from a moment of euphoria to thinking. Yes, he’s done it. He’s mad. He hasn’t told me he’s kept it a secret and I’m getting flown off the top and I’m going to be home in five minutes and no, it didn’t turn out like that.

I bummed shuffled quite a way of it down. On the way down, my legs were just so tired. It was crazy. And so did this sort of spur on the next challenge you did this year? Was that, is that the idea now to sort of D challenge after challenge raising money for cervical cancer? Yeah. So the first one, when it started, it was just going to be one, but it always ends up that way.

There’s never just one of anything. Once you start down this crazy path. Yeah. I think always people sort of go when you’re doing it or when you’ve done it. Or even sometimes before you’ve even [00:37:00] started, they just sort of say, Oh, well, what’s next, what’s off their game. I’ve just been planning this for the.

The last six months I’m just going to do this. And then of course, once you’ve done it, it’s, it’s almost like a drug you’ve sort of had that hits. On episode five, we are speaking with Jamie Ramsey and he says, it’s like this sort of hit you’ve had it. And then it’s like, Oh, I can do that now. How can I better that?

Yeah. Yeah. You definitely start down a very dangerous path. It is like being, it’s like being an addict. You’re an addict to this insurance feeling this, this euphoria of, of completing something and pushing past what you perceive your limits to be then, and then. Knowing that you’ve done that and then wanting to push further and wanting to do more.

I think it’s [00:38:00] yeah, there’s definitely an addiction there for sure. And I finished. Yeah. So I finished the first one and I didn’t, I guess in the back of my mind, I, I knew there would be. Something else. There was no way I would be able to just sit and, you know, sit back and relax and think, Oh, it’s done.

It’s at that. That’s it. I’ve, I’ve created, I’ve created my platform. I’m, you know, I’ve done what I wanted to do. Those, there was always going to be something else. So, and it didn’t take very long. It was probably about a month after that. I was already busy planning the next one. But so this, this year they, the plans did have they changed quite significantly from what they were supposed to be, because let’s see 20, 20 being the year that it is it.

I don’t think anyone’s [00:39:00] plans have worked out the way that they hoped or wanted them to. Yeah. So my, my initial challenge this year, I was supposed to be doing what was called the three lakes. So I was planning to swim the three longest lakes in Wales, England, and Scotland run the three peaks. So the traditional three peaks challenge and cycle, all the bits in between.

But because of COVID, we were in lockdown in France and I wasn’t able to get across to the UK and in time to be able to do the challenge that, that I’d set out for myself. And we, so we had set off to the UK and then the UK brought in the quarantine restrictions and we were halfway through France on the way to the boat to come across.

And [00:40:00] the, we had to get there before four o’clock in the morning so that we wouldn’t be put into. Quarantine or so we didn’t have to self isolate for the 14 days. And unfortunately it just, we couldn’t, I couldn’t take the risk because I hadn’t record the course properly at that point. So I needed those 10 days to be able to go out and record the course.

The temperature in lock or was dropping by the day it was already, it was already sat at my limit. It was around 13.5 degrees. And if it sounds, it sounds crazy. And a lot of people said to me, well, why didn’t you just push it out two, three, four weeks, the temperature in lock, or can drop significantly in two to three weeks.

And. It just a 41 K swim 11 to 12 degrees. Just it, I would have been crazy. Try and try and to [00:41:00] do that at the end of having, having done everything else. I’m all about challenging and pushing myself, but I have safety limits and that would have home beyond my safety limits. You wear a wetsuit though, when you do.

Yes. I mean, even still I jumped into 12 degrees a few weeks back and yeah, it’s, it’s pretty fresh. Hey, Tony wakes you up. Let’s let’s see. Yeah, I, yeah, no, I, I made the decision quite. Early on when I started these things that I, I was going to wear a wet suit and I swim in the open water swimming community.

It took a while for people to really embrace the whole I’m wearing a wetsuit thing, but it, because I have so much, you know, there’s a lot more to it than just swimming. And I need to make sure that. I’m not [00:42:00] hypothermic that I’m able to get on the bike and there’s, and also I can’t afford to put on as much body fat as some of some of the other open water swimmers do when they’re setting out on, on a big open water adventure.

Yeah. Yeah. So I. Had to change very quickly the plans for this year. But fortunately, because I started down this addiction route I already had next year’s planned already. Well, not plan, but I had it in my head of what I wanted to do in 2021, which is effectively what I ended up doing this year, the Mont Blanc triple crown, which I.

I swam around the perimeter of Lake Annecy, which to my knowledge, nobody has ever swam around the perimeter. A lot of people have swam one [00:43:00] end to the other and a few people have done the return. So they’ve swam from one. Now they’ve done a double Lake Annecy swim, but nobody’s swam the 38 kilometers around the perimeter.

So I started with, with that swim and then I rode the tour de Montblanc. So it’s quite a, a famous bike ride around Montblanc. It’s. Quite short in terms of distance compared to what I, what I’d done previously. So the bike itself has only 330 kilometers, but it has 12,000 meters of climbing. It’s you.

You basically spend your whole time climbing, climbing, climbing, and hurting and suffering. Yeah. So then I had, I wrote that and then I [00:44:00] ran the ultra trail Dumont blog, which is. Well regarded as possibly the, or one of the hardest trail runs in the world. It’s 170 kilometers with approximately about 12,000 meters of climbing again.

So it’s pretty, pretty significant. So in terms of preparing for these expeditions, how was what’s a sort of training program you sort of go through, do you. Because to do something like your triathlon along the canal canal, sorry, along the channel. And then cycle 900. I mean, were you training nine months, six months, two years.

A year beforehand to get in shape to get in. Yeah. So I think it, for me, I have a, I have a really strong [00:45:00] base level of fitness. I’ve I’ve always, I’ve always had that. I’ve always been doing, I’m always training regardless of what I’m training for. I’m always doing something I’m always out and training, but specifically when I’m doing a challenge, I would normally set myself a program six months out.

So I’d have a dedicated program. So I know exactly how much I’m going to swim in each week. I know what that cycle will look like for the months. And likewise with the bike and the climb. I know how many Ks I need to get in on the bike to make sure that I’m, I’m prepared for the challenge. I think. Yeah.

Again, it’s about, for me, although I have. Timeframe. Everything seems to have come to this five days. It seems to be a theme that I’ve come up with now. But although I have that timeframe, [00:46:00] it’s not about going fast. It’s. Very strategically planned. So it’s strategically planned around having, you know, my energy systems in, in the right place so that I can keep moving forward that I’m not totally drained, that I don’t have to have more rest than I’d planned for.

So there’s, there’s a lot more, a lot of the preparation and training for me is more around Energy efficiency, making sure that my body is using the fuel that I give it along the way. And making sure that the logistics are planned to the second it’s I spend a lot more time planning my logistics and my nutrition intake than I do.

Planning my training, the training for me is the easy [00:47:00] part. That’s the bit that I know I can do. I’m I’m fit. I can, as long as I’m fueled, as long as I’ve got a really, really nailed plan and goals from getting from a to B and know what I’m going to do, then that’s extremely important for me to have in place.

You, you had quite an interesting story on your website about. Past the parties before your events and then finding out you you ha ha celiac celiac. Yeah. So as a. As a young girl growing up in the swimming world, I, I competed, competed at a reasonably high standard and I would always, before a competition, would, you know, you’re told to pass the load carb load, eat, pastor, eat pizza, eat anything that you can get your hands on that is, that is high in [00:48:00] carbs, but.

Unbeknown to me. And my family, I, I do have celiac disease. And so I was always carbo-loading and never understanding why. Once I got to a competition that I was sick. I was always, always sick. Always depleted of energy, found it very difficult to you know, reach the standard that I was showing in training.

So I was able to train really, really well. And I was constantly on, on target to, to break records and, and do really well. And then I’d hit the water. Come competition. And I mean, there were two, the times that I would pass out in the middle of the pool and the lifeguards would have to jump in and get me because effectively my whole immune system just wasn’t responding and it wasn’t responding because I was [00:49:00] fueling it with the wrong cops.

They’re the wrong thing. Things that I shouldn’t have been putting into my body. And it was just having this, this effect on me. And it wasn’t, it wasn’t for quite a long time afterwards that we, we realized that that’s what, what the effect that it was having on me. Yeah, I think it takes a while to sort of work these things out.

Not quite on the same level as what you had, but yeah. You know, growing up, you’re always so used to all these products that everyone has, everyone takes and then you have them, but you always feel slightly off and it’s probably only later in life, you work it out and you’re like, dang. I think that suits me very well.

Yeah. No, absolutely. And that’s, that’s exactly what was happening and it’s very hard, you know, when, when you’re work, even as an adult, if you’re, you’re being told that this is the right thing for you to take that this [00:50:00] is what you, this is what you need to do, but it just doesn’t agree with you. I think everyone is everyone is extremely individual and, and unique and in what you need to be able to, to fuel you to do things.

I mean that that’s an incredible story. But there’s a part of the show where we ask the same five questions to each guest each week. And so on your sort of. Trips and expeditions, what’s the one thing, wire swimming, cycling, or hiking. Do you crave? Which bizarre thing do you sort of Cray, which other people might be like?

Hmm, that’s weird chicken nuggets, unfortunately. And I don’t know where it comes from. I don’t have it in any other part of my life. I don’t, I never eat chicken nuggets ever. But when I’m in, when I’m doing these things, whether it’s [00:51:00] the sea to summit challenges, whether it’s an iron man, whatever it might be, I get this overwhelming craving for chicken nuggets.

And I just, I don’t know where it’s came from, but it’s there now. And I can’t, I can never get it out of my head. Did you have a favorite adventure book? Oh probably born to run. It is, yeah, it’s still, it’s not specifically adventure per se, but it’s it’s one of the most motivating and inspiring books that I I’ve read more than once.

Oh, wow. Yeah, I still need to finish it. I, as I was saying on one of my episodes, I was reading it before I did. One of my runs got halfway through, did my run. And then after that, [00:52:00] I sort of washed my hands of running for a few months and haven’t got, haven’t quite got back to finish finishing the book, unfortunately.

Oh, okay. No, I I do. I think I was probably the same when I first read it. I was, yeah, that can’t really happen. That can’t be real that but then there’s just, so this there’s a lot of inspiration that, that I draw from, from that book. Yeah. I, did you have an inspirational figure growing up? I, I did.

I think there’s. There’s a few, but I don’t really tend to, I I’m inspired by a lot of different things. I’m inspired by and always have been by anybody and any [00:53:00] person that pushes themselves. Out of their comfort zone or pushes their own limits and that doesn’t have to be for me and I, this is something that’s really important to me, is it, it doesn’t have to be somebody that is out there doing things like I’m doing or other people are doing, or it’s, it’s very much, you know, I use an example, my sister, my sister.

Something amazing and inspirational would be if she went out and tried to do the couch to 5k run, for example, that would inspire me significantly because she, you know, she’s, she’s pushing herself. It’s not something that, that she’s been able to do before. So I draw a lot of inspiration and always have as a child from people.

Like that around me in my own circle. But I think in terms of public figures, as I was growing up, probably Kelly [00:54:00] Holmes because I was always running and just, you know, seeing in particular, you know, a female figure who had gone through so much challenge and adversity in her life and. Eventually pushing herself to get her Olympic gold medals and just remembering, sitting, watching it on the TV and how ecstatic it was and how amazing it brought the country together, I think was, was awesome.

And. Yeah. Other people, people like David Attenborough just the, you know, the, to give you that sense of freedom and adventure and travel. And yeah, there’s a, I have a lot of different inspirations that I draw from. So I don’t think there’s any one specific person that I can say. They were on my wall.

They were the person that I was always striving to be [00:55:00] like. Yeah. I think, I think a lot of people will have different elements and pick characteristics from different ones. So you’re not alone on that one. And do you have a favorite quote or motivational quote? Oh, there’s lots of them too. I think probably for me, the one that I would.

Use most often, or that I like is every journey begins with a single step. So you’re yeah. It’s, you know, there’s no, you have to start somewhere. You have to start to be able to achieve anything and it doesn’t need to be a big step. It doesn’t need to be a giant leap. It’s just moving forward in the right direction.

Yeah. And I suppose people listening, always keen to go on these sort of big adventures and [00:56:00] expeditions like you, what’s the one thing you would recommend for them to get started? Always have a plan. Nah, never start anything without. Having a plan. You, you can have the idea. But if you really, if you really want to succeed and you want to be able to do it, then for me, it it’s, it’s all about planning.

You don’t don’t don’t see somebody. Cause I see so many people that try to be like all of these influencers on Instagram or adventure people and they think, Oh, you know this person’s done it. They quit their job. They’ve gone off, they’ve traveled around the world. They’ve been able to do this, that and the other.

But you can’t just do that. It’s you, you have to have, you have to have some level of, of planning around being able to do that. [00:57:00] And I think in this day and age, it’s so easy to, to think that it’s easy because it looks easy, but there’s so much that that goes into it. So I think for me, it’s always think out of the box.

So don’t. Don’t restrain yourself to thinking, Oh, I can only do this, or I can’t do this. Or you always think that you can do anything, but make sure you have a plan to be able to do that. Anything. Yeah. Otherwise, yeah. You don’t want to be knocked back. Yeah. I think we spoke about a story with I think that our Humphreys credited saying that He, he was speak, a guy was speaking and sort of followed him and had this idea.

He had a family and everything and sort of saw what Al Humphreys was doing and wanted to do that anyway. So he quit his job, [00:58:00] went off to go and cycle the Himalayas. And then after two weeks quit and said, actually, It’s not for me really. It’s not for me. My lay, the comforts of home. I miss my family and actually I suddenly realized that’s what I enjoy.

And I’m quite happy to go on these small adventures, but you know, these big grant yearlong month long adventures are really not for me. No. And I think it’s, it’s not always. As glamorous or as easy as it may seem in, in the social media world as well. Yeah. I a hundred percent agree with that.

So make sure if you’re going to do something, have a plan. Okay. And so what are you doing now and how can people follow you? So [00:59:00] I, right now I’m focusing a lot on my charity. So I set up a charity earlier this year called lady talk matters. Which focuses solely on removing the taboos surrounding female reproductive health.

So it, we, we do a lot of work around endometriosis, cervical cancer, period poverty, a lot of, a lot of other conditions as well. So I’m really focusing at the minute on delivering value through, through that charity. And as a way of fundraising specifically, to be able to deliver the things that, that I do, I use my C2 summit extreme platform to fundraise.

So I’ve got a lot of plans in the pipeline for next year for C2 summit. [01:00:00] Challenges the main one being the three lakes challenge that I wasn’t able to do this year. So that is my that’s my big sea to summit challenge next year. And I’ll be running a virtual challenge alongside my challenge so people can, can join and participate and push themselves.

And all proceeds will, will go to lady taught matters. Amazing and your Instagram handle or website see to some extreme. Okay, amazing. Thank you. And I have to say you have an incredible story and just really inspirational for anyone listening and I can’t. Thank you enough for coming on the show today.

Thank you very much. It was great to talk to you.

EP.010: Ray Zahab

Ray Zahab (explorer & ultra runner)

Ray Zahab is a Canadian Explorer, ultra-distance runner and Founder of non-profit impossible2Possible. He has run 17,000+km across the world’s deserts, and unsupported expeditions in some of the coldest places on the planet.
In 2006, former “pack a day smoker” turned ultra-runner Ray Zahab and two friends, Charlie Engle and Kevin Lin set out on an expedition to cross the Sahara Desert by foot. 111 days and 7,500 km after leaving the coast of Senegal, Africa they completed their journey by stepping into the Red Sea. The expedition had the trio running an average of 70kms a day without a single day of rest, for 111 days.
On this week’s Podcast, we talk about Ray’s beginnings from his very first Ultra to Running the Sahara Desert. We talk about moments where he almost lost his life and plans for the future

Ray’s Website

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Transcript of our Conversation

Ray Zahab

[00:00:00] Ray Zahab: And was almost pulled under the ice to go a kilometer down river, never to be found again. Right? Like, I mean, it was a thin, so I was in this hole and I was like with my, that my snow shoes on that were pulling me under with the current. And so I was trying to work my boots off. It was about minus 30. I was trying to work my boots off that couldn’t get them off.

And with the current pulling against the snow shoes, right. Using that as leverage. And I. I was sure I was never going to see my family again, this is how I was going to die and it was horrific and terrifying at the same time.

I suppose people listening is when they see the list of the expeditions you’ve done over the years. It’s truly remarkable. And [00:01:00] I suppose what I want to know is how did this love affair with ultra running come about? Well, that’s a great question, John. So, you know, everybody sort of finds the thing that they’re passionate about at, at some point, right?

So. No, my story is not that uncommon. I would say in, in endurance and adventure, I was a guy who, in my late twenties, was, as you had mentioned before, when we were talking, before we came on air, I was smoking a pack two packs a day. I was a very unhealthy person drinking my face off, filling my body full of pollutants and, I think, you know, most importantly, I was a very unhappy person.

I was one of these people that, you know, if you were, if we were drinking together at the pub, you’d think I was like the life of the party. I was always having a great time, but inside I was just a very unhappy person. And I think that a lot of us have a hard time, [00:02:00] at least I know I did defining that and being honest about that, as long as that’s not sounding too philosophical, but it’s the truth.

And so I, I got to a point where I was close to 30 and I was just sick of feeling that way. I was just no longer satisfied with a life that was going nowhere that was void of passion or direction. And I just thought shit, like I can’t see myself lasting many more years living this way. So something’s got to change.

And I have a brother, a younger brother, John, who is a year younger than I am. Just an incredible athlete. And he’s one of these guys who he wasn’t a, a conventional athlete. This is late nineties, right? So not everybody was talking so much about mountain biking and rock climbing and albinism and all the things that we all love to do.

Now, back then, I mean, you know, people talk much more. You know about the other sports that everybody was sort of already used to. Right. I don’t examples, whatever [00:03:00] hockey, football, baseball, et cetera. And so he not saying that it wasn’t there it’s just that it wasn’t as like, I guess as popular a thing. And so he was, he was doing these things and I was like fascinated by the things he was doing.

Now. Maybe it’s also because. I didn’t know about any of these things. So it wasn’t in my mind that people actually did these things, but he was a great example of what these adventure sports could bring to someone. And he was this very confident guy who was like, Amazing shape. And at that time in my life, he was sorta like a, like a beacon of, of potentially what could be.

So I thought, what the hell? Maybe if I did the things he does in his life, my life would, would be different. And I had no money. I had no direction, I had nothing to lose and I figured I’m going to give this a shot. And that’s basically how it started. I mean, I took me three years to quit smoking, which was.

Sort of the symbol of everything else that was negative. That was going on in my life that I was doing in my life, the over party and everything else was kind of like this. If [00:04:00] I could control this one thing, I thought I could control everything else. And because I loved, I loved smoking. I mean, there’s just, there’s no within buts about it.

I, you know, having a smoke and a coffee or a pint of Guinness and a coffee, I just could not picture life without spokes. That took me three years to quit smoking and, You know, it, it, it really gave clarity to me that the most difficult things that we do in our lives are very relative to us as individuals is how we feel about something that’s really the most critical.

Cause I speak at these things at events all over the world and people come up to me and they tell me, Hey man, you took you three years to quit smoking. It took me like a day, what’s up with that. And I said, well, yeah, because for me it was frigging hard, you know, but anyhow, I always tell long stories as you can tell.

So I quit smoking finally on new year’s Eve 99 completely. I tried off and on for three years, and then that’s when my life began to change. Was that one thing. And from that point forward, it’s sort of like a joke. [00:05:00] I followed my brother into the outdoors. He was teaching me things. I started doing the sports he was doing.

I got him an avid ice climber. I became, you know, quite adept on a mountain bike. I started racing mountain bikes that are pretty elite level. You know, cross-country in 24 hours solos. And then, you know, I was adventure racing. I was doing all these things that were reintroducing myself to me, to a new me at 30 years of age, 35 years of age, that I never knew existed.

I had this engine to do these things when cleaned up. I had an engine like my brothers to do these things, and that led me to ultra running. I read an article about a race called the Yukon Arctic ultra. A hundred mile version of that race takes place in the Yukon every year. And it was my very first running race.

I had not done a running race and I not only completed that race, I actually won it. And it was, it was like a [00:06:00] weight, like a ton of, bricks had been lifted from my shoulders and that I, I. Realized that it wasn’t a me thing that, that people, human beings underestimate themselves physically, mentally, emotionally.

And I knew that running an adventure was teaching me like to redefine who I was or what limits I might or might not have. And that. In the longest answer possible is how I started ultra running. And that race led me to other races all over the world. I would continue to compete and I loved that. And then that would eventually lead me into expeditions, which I’ll wait till you ask another question.

do you think, because you said to you a sort of very keen smoker, do you think when you gave up. smoking after three years, it was finding that new addiction in a sense, in a way that we had on the show in episode two, a guy called [00:07:00] James Gwinnett who get gay, had to give up alcohol. And he said he sort of saw at first running as a way of coping, did you find that giving up smoking ultra running sort of moved in to sort of.

Take take the place of smoking. No, I think individual experiences and individual lives are very unique. How we internalize the situation that we’re in and we act on it is a gain, a very individual and relative thing, right? Yeah. But I. I would like to say that it was, but it’s almost like the same way that I entered that Yukon Arctic ultra, after reading this magazine article and I was influenced and inspired by the people in the article, the photos of them that.

They all appear to be relatively normal looking people. They didn’t look like what I thought an elite marathon runner looked like. And so based on that alone, I was inspired to enter this crazy race that when you [00:08:00] think about it on its surface, okay, so you can go over a hundred miles. That’s bad. It’s not in the Arctic dragon, all your stuff with you, right.

As your first running, it doesn’t really make sense. And you know, there’s the old saying ignorance is bliss. It just kind of fell into place. When I first started doing these things with my brother, It had nothing to do really with the sports themselves, it had to do with him and this confidence that he had and the fitness that he just like, he just was, it was a whole comedy.

He was the package of what I wanted to be. And so he could have been a, you know, I’ve made the joke that he could have been an electrician and this would be a podcast about how best to wire your house. And that’s all we’d be sitting here talking about right now. So it really didn’t, I didn’t care. So much about what he did, it’s what he had become.

And so then I fell in love with the sports I was doing. So it wasn’t like I was doing them. Do I have an addictive personality? Quite possibly, you know, but [00:09:00] is it, is it like this dirt, this, this thing that I need to go. And, and I feel every day while if I don’t, you know, Run or mountain bike or do the things I do or ski that like that, that void needs to be filled.

It’s kind of not like that. It’s not like that for me. It’s just, it just is, it just became what it is, you know? Yeah. It’s the sort of love of it now. And he’s the love of it now and what it teaches me about me. And 17,000 kilometers later, plus I don’t even know. I keep trying to add it up at look, it’s a lot of kilometers in deserts and Arctic regions.

I keep learning stuff about us, you know, and I think that that I think is extremely fulfilling, you know, and it sort of fills any gaps. Did you find with the first race? It was very much this idea of, completing the race and then after you’d won it, it was very much of how far can I go? Nope. The [00:10:00] first race I did when I was standing at the start line, I thought there is no freaking way I’m finishing this race.

Like, there’s just, it’s not happening. Like it wasn’t even a, you know what, it wasn’t trying to be positive or it wasn’t. I mean, like it. It was not going to happen. It was just going to, my goal was get as far as I could and then like, push myself, look I hadn’t before. And then see if whatever, all these other people that do this stuff and somehow find something in it.

That’s fun or whatever, a reason for them to go back and do something so hard over and over figure out what that magic is. They know, and then go home. Because I’d done hard stuff. Physically racing mountain bikes is a hard cross-country is hard to do. It’s this you’re just full throttle, your full pin the whole time.

But when you’re climbing, you’re lungs are on the bars of the bike, right? Like it’s just, it’s a brutal sport. And then descending, especially in Quebec where I live, it’s, it’s very technical mountain biking. And so it had it all. So it wasn’t like I was going in trying to [00:11:00] something, find something physically more difficult to do it.

It just. With something that I had never done. And I saw the reward effort, reward equation from other people seem to be is something that I really needed and wanted. So that’s, that’s how that, but then, you know, lo and behold, I’m getting to, I get to 80 K in this race and I’m thinking, well, you know, I’m dropping out of this.

This is stupid. What am I going to tell all the people, you know, back at home that told me not to do this in the first place. Right. So I had this big engine. For mountain biking and adventure racing when I started that race, but running is a completely different thing. It’s a completely different, you know, the, my legs dude where like cement, right?

Like I felt horrible, but something in me compelled me to go forward in that race. And the further I went, and this is the amazing thing that never happened when I was mountain bike racing or adventure racing, the further I [00:12:00] went, the better I felt. It’s like when I fully committed to it, like when I was all in, like at the 80 K Mark onward, I was like, okay, I’m so I’m into this now.

I’m just going to keep going. I’m going to push myself into the ground because to be perfectly honest with you, the people back at home, I’m not, I don’t care anymore. When anyone thinks, you know, I did this for me. I had no money. I spent every dime in my bank account for the entry fee to get to this race.

Friends of mine donated. Aeroplan like, you know, air miles for me to go to the race. Right. So, what am I going home? I mean, I was there for me and I, and I, and I realized in that moment I was there for me and no one else. So however, this thing finished was on my terms. No one else, you know, So 30 years of worrying or not taking risks, because I was afraid of what someone would think or that something was going to work out.

Wasn’t going to work out right. [00:13:00] And all this negative shit that I would predict gave way in this race. And I just cranked it. Like I pushed myself cranked it. I struggled down the trail, walking, dragging my feet to the side. And then one thing led to another story. Finding myself running. I was totally focused about getting down the trail as far as I could.

And then night turns today and dah, dah, dah, and then I finished it and I win this race. Now, how did I do it? I didn’t know how I took all those processes and steps to get me to the finish line. That’s why I continued ultra running it wasn’t because, Hey, I won this maybe, I’m going to run. I’m going to win ultra marathons from now on that’s my new thing.

I wasn’t what I was thinking. When I left that race, I thought. Wow. Like I crossed that finish line, feeling like a million bucks. I want to feel invincible like that, talking to somebody on a podcast or writing a, an email. Like I want to feel that good every day. Now, how exactly did I do that? Cause I felt like shit about 10 minutes after the race ended, because that’s when all the pain came back in my legs.

Right. So. [00:14:00] that’s when I started entering ultra marathons all over the world and I started competing in them and I liked the more adventurey ones. I went to races in the Sahara, the jungle, et cetera. And then I would meet up with a couple of ultra runners. We became really good buddies, and then we decided to run across the entire Sahara 7,500 K.

And that’s when that whole new life began of expeditions, because it was just a completely different. Set of skills and, and it’s been 31 32 expeditions since that day. Got it. And so how from then to your Sahara race, which was in 1997, Sorry, this is hair condition 2006, 2007. Yeah. Yeah. And so in terms of the planning for that to go from your first race to that, did you have a lot of races in between, or was it very much [00:15:00] a couple of times, like I just did, it was Oh four.

So that was 2004, February, 2004. Was the Yukon Arctic ultra then in that timeframe, I mean, you know, between 2004. In 2006 when we left for the Sahara. So basically, like two years, two and a half years I had gone to, Oh my goodness. I saw there was the Yukon. Then there was marathon day sad. The first time then I did the trans ALP mountain bike race.

Then I did the trans three, three, three, 333 kilometers nonstop. And these year I did the jungle marathon stage race. I ended up Brazil. I did. The Libyan challenge, 190 K through the ACA COOs mountains in Western Libya. I did marathon day SAB. Again, I did racing the plan at a couple of other races. All of these you’d one ref run right after another, like he was so beat down before I even got to the deck, people ask me, how did you train to [00:16:00] run 7,500 K in 111 days across the Sahara.

So think about that math that’s about 70 kilometers a day. For 111 days straight in the sand, right? How did you train it as a loan? I just did a bunch of these races for two years. Right. And it was, it was, again, ignorance is bliss. Of course I don’t approach my expeditions that way, the way I approach running the Sahara.

I mean, we were on threads in that, in that expedition, you know, but. Now I take a much more scientific approach to preparing, you know, absolutely mental. And I mean, God, just sort of thinking about it because marathon runners, you sort of see the Mo Farah and all those sort of runners. They didn’t compete in every single.

Marathon around the world, they specifically pick and choose because between each race, do you need quite a extensive amount of rest in [00:17:00] between otherwise? Oh, well, I don’t know the sort of scientific, versions of it, but, Your body sort of needs to recover, but before the Sahara, you were very much going from one to the other, to the other, and that rather than training, you were just competing in these races more, more or less.

Yes. I would say that, that, you know, obviously I was training in between the races, there was gaps of a month or two, right. So, you know, maybe it was on an average of every two months. So I was definitely training in those two month periods. I was obviously tired, you know, and then I had between the last race I did was in 2006 and I’m trying to think, I think it was the Sahara race in Egypt, which I won.

And I think that no, that was in 2005. Anyway, I can’t remember, but I had a few months before doing, running the Sahara now running the Sahara. Well, it’s a different project completely [00:18:00] because it was the three of us together as a team. And our goal was to run from the Western coast of Africa to the Eastern coast, six countries.

and we had a film crew that followed us. Right. So, you know, I always say it was serendipity that had a huge hand in this, but Matt Damon and an Academy award winner made this film, running the Sahara in an effort to raise awareness for the drinking water carrier exists in North Africa, clean water crisis.

and so, there was more to it. Do you know what I mean? And, but running the Sahara was the longest expedition I’ve done. But it was also the most supported. And since then expeditions have become less supportive, completely unsupported in the case of a lot of my cold expeditions, like winter Arctic expeditions or in desert arcs or other desert or desert expeditions that I’ve [00:19:00] done need more coffee today.

they been in brutal climates with minimal resupplies. It’s just more economical to do it that way too. Right. It’s so good. And, and so you were doing that supported in terms of the team you were with, you had runners, you had support crew, you had vehicles all coming along beside you as you run, right?

No. No. So in running the Sahara and people can see the documentary running the run, it’s just called running the Sahara. In that expedition, we would go lengthy periods navigating across the desert and we would eventually meet up with four wheel drives with our crew and then resupply get hydration, everything we need.

And then we take off again, depending on the desert, the train. Sometimes we were stuck on roads depending on the country. Right. you know, and, and, and. For multiple considerations. It depended on the region of North Africa where we were, where we [00:20:00] were at the time. So yes, we had a supported camp. The people setting up tents, feeding us.

There’s an entire film crew, Hollywood film crew filming the expedition as it happened. But then, but there was no pace runners. There was no, I don’t know how else to put it there. Wasn’t somebody there every day. Mile giving us hydration, you know, we carried it with us for as long as we could in the case of that expedition.

okay. Sort of, what are you saying sort of similar to, let’s say the marathon desal, bla, where you sort of are able to refill each night, but you had them sort of at different checkpoints. Yeah, we didn’t have to carry because marathon day SAB was six days, seven days of racing and. You know, you carry everything, having done marathon, they SAB twice.

I’m well aware of how you try to get everything down to weighing as much as it can all fit in this cop. I [00:21:00] swear. You know, so, we’re not carrying all of our foods to 111 days, right. So we would only have hydration packs. And so it was, it was, everything we could by the end. So you’re doing the long day more or less, a little bit shorter than the long day of the marathon day SAB every single day.

Right. As one of the averaged out to be, we had some days that were really long, some days that weren’t as long, but that was kind of like the average, right? So, no, you’re not carrying your sleeping equipment with you, but when I crossed the Atacama desert North to South solo, 1200 kilometers from the previous board or self to Copia.

I did it in summer 2011, the middle of the summer dude, you want heat? It was like in the fifties Celsius every single day, dry his place on earth. It was brutal. I was limited, limited resupplies. I was getting resupplied every 20 to 30 K sometimes as much as 50 K. I was running as much as I could. I had many, many days over [00:22:00] 70 K, and some days less way less than one day I was injured.

I got six or seven K, but on that expedition, I carried everything with me. You can see photos of me carrying all my supplies with me in case because it was unknown territory. A lot of it where I was going through in case I got stuck a day or two away from my crew. yeah. Hoping that it wouldn’t be more than a day because it was so hot.

I just could physically could not carry enough hydration. Right. But you know what I mean? You see the difference right? Running the Sahara crew running across the Atacama desert or the Gobi desert or any one of the other deserts that I’ve crossed very minimal carrying the supplies. I need to be able to take care of myself when I’m out there.

It was interesting because I went to a talk a couple of years ago and it was about how the body is able to adapt to the heat much better than the cold. So I think because, homo sapiens [00:23:00] originated in Africa and a very hot country, our bodies are able to adapt very quickly to the heat in comparison to the cold.

Is it, do you find. When you in sort of 50 degree heat in the desert compared to minus 2030 in the Arctic, you you’re able to climatize quicker. I wish a minus 20. My friend is my backyard and winter and Chelsea go back in the Arctic. You know, when I’m on a winter Arctic expedition, I was doing a project up, near the Island of ticket targe whack, and on the sea ice and across Baffin Island in January, this past January, 2020.

With the winds, the temperatures dipped into the mid minus sixties. So insanely cold. Look, I much prefer heat over cold, but I train now I take a year, two years to prepare for a project. Right. And I find myself at both ends of the spectrum on the [00:24:00] thermometer. I’m in deserts like death Valley. I’ve done two major projects there in the middle of summer, July or August.

The deserts. I love to be there in the summer when it’s the hottest, whether it’s Southern hemisphere or Northern hemisphere summer for that hemisphere in the Arctic and colder regions, I want to be there in the middle of winter when it’s the coldest, when it’s going off, the sky looks completely different.

And so I know that that’s my goal is to be in those places in those times. So I take it very seriously and train and get my body to adapt through stress loading. To be better able to do the hot or the cold. You’re absolutely right. And I agree with the information that you had just shared with us about us being better, able to adapt to heat, but I have a sauna in my backyard.

It’s a big sauna barrel, and I use it when I’m going to the Arctic. I train in sauna barrel in extreme heat. For the extreme cold. So I get my [00:25:00] body used to being able to process fluids under a stressful situation and food like the sauna. If I can get my body working through that stuff, sweating, doing the things that needs to, to cool itself and fuel itself.

Then at a stressful situation in the extreme cold, my body will then have the mechanics. It won’t just go, boom. And then be done right. And keel over. But instead my body is able to better adapt to an alternate stressful situation, which is extreme cold. So, that when I’m on expedition, by Naval to by body use its faculties physically to warm itself, shivering, blah, blah, blah.

You know, but I also have an amazing partner, a company called Canada goose. I don’t know how popular is the UK. I’ve been with Canada goose for. 13 years and they custom make all of my clothing for all of my expeditions. And I use, you know, obviously clothing that’s in the, I [00:26:00] was the term lion up and, literally I’ve had my life saved.

I lived in the cold, you know, bye bye Canada goose jackets that I’ve had that have literally saved my life in dicey situations. Like. It’s crazy. Anyhow. Good. And so do you, with the sort of extremes, do you take different approaches? I mean, when you were talking about putting yourself into the extreme code, do you take, sometimes let’s say approaches like Wim, Hoff methods, his breathing techniques.

Do you. Take those sort of approaches. Okay. So, so I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s a much broader question, but breathing techniques, you know, I’ve been employing breathing techniques, in my ultra running training sense in, since the old days, you know, and when I was racing, nose breathing, et cetera. Because [00:27:00] there’s a multiple reasons.

Actually. There’s a lot of books out there. People can look it up about nose breathing. There’s a lot of research about that. I have an altitude machine. I train, I think the better answer for me to give you is I train very specifically from food. To training in the gym to training outside very specifically for what it is that I’m going to do.

So I’ll give you an example. When I crossed the Namib desert in 2018, I think it was summer 2018. So my buddy Stefano and I Stefano from Italy, Gregor, Eddie, and I ran 1,850 kilometers in a straight line as we could across Namibia. And we knew in planning, we’d be crossing canyons. Gnarly terrain, bushwhacking, potentially sand, obviously.

And you know, some combination of gravel track if there was right, you know, whenever we would end up with that. So I knew that elevation changes. We’re going to be big as they were in the [00:28:00] Atacama desert. When I was off road at elevation changes in the out of camel were crazy, and this is a high desert. So I do all of my running training.

Based on elevation gained each day, not on distance. I leave from my door where we live, you know, I can li leave here and do a thousand feet, every 10 K on very technical trails of elevation gain. So I would design my program around elevation gained and technical trail running because what am I going to do in Namibia technical running?

And I’m going to be going up and down a lot. So I may as well get my bodies. You know what I’m saying? And then if I’m getting ready for an Arctic expedition, I can be pulling a sled. I’m not a big guy weigh about 150 pounds, right. So I need to get strong and build my strength base. So I am doing very specific core centric and specific movements in the gym.

And I have a program designed for me by my brother, by the way, who’s a bleeding strength coach and he, It helps me to get ready physically to pull a [00:29:00] heavy sled. So that’s kinda, and then nutrition. So if I’m going into a desert, many of the desert expeditions that I’m doing, I’m sourcing my foods and getting my food on the ground there.

So, you know, rice is mostly complex carbohydrates, you know, it’s just seems to be the name of the game in the desert. I bring loads of fats with me and stuff like that, but my crew in a desert expedition. I’m supported. Right. And part of that minimal support is camp each night, somebody cooking for everybody, the camera guy, the Bubba buddy in the Arctic I’m dragging everything I’m alone or I’m with one other person and we’re dragging everything for however many days we’re out there.

So in context to that, I’m going to take more fat. Than I am. Anything else? Cause nine calories per gram, you get the picture. So I adapt my body before an Arctic expedition to a much higher fat diet. So rolling into the Arctic expedition, I’m already super efficient, you know? Yeah. [00:30:00] we had a guest on earlier and she was saying how she was like used to swim professionally.

And before each race, because she was always told to pack a carbo load, or so she used to have a massive pass the party as they call it, but it turned out she had celiac disease. So suddenly she, you know, before a big race where she’d been training, she was like, ready to go. She’d have this massive pass the party and then be really ill on the day of training.

And of course, everyone just thought it might be nerves. It might be something else. whereas it sounds like from you, you’re very much physically training and then you’re, or it’s just a natural progression into the race or yeah, I’m already. And then from a mental perspective, Oh, you know, I’m already there, right?

Like I’ve been there thinking about this place in the back of my mind for a year, [00:31:00] you know, some expeditions it’s two or three years of planning, you know? And so I’m already mentally there. And by the time I get to the expedition things seem familiar. How crazy is that right. Things just seem familiar like, Oh yeah.

I think I kind of feel like I’ve been here before, and of course I haven’t, but I’m comfortable in that space. Right. And it’s the same thing that we do with our youth expedition. So the impossible to possible youth expeditions, I I’ve done 15 of those with, through our youth program. You, I know you’re going to probably ask me about this later, so I won’t get too deep into it, but on those youth based expeditions, because I’ve learned this about myself.

We get our youth ambassadors before they go on expeditions to sort of, not as heavily follow the protocols, but depth behind a lot of these theories in preparation, you know? Yeah. Well, I suppose for people listening, why didn’t you sort of explain what the impossible possible is? [00:32:00] Impossible to possible.

So it’s an organization that my wife and I, and, my best friend Bob started in 2008, shortly after we actually came up with the concept in 2007, after I finished the running thing, the Sahara expedition and the idea was pretty straight forward that we wanted to recreate that running the Sahara experience that I had.

But for young people. So give kids between 16 and 21 years of age and opportunity, young people, an opportunity to go and do an extraordinary expedition in some far off part of the world. Amazon jungle, Tunisia and Sahara, Arctic, all over ratchet, Stan. And do a six day, seven day running expedition.

That’s combined with a relevant educational program and resource based on the area that they’re in. If you’re in the Amazon jungle, we’re learning about biodiversity, kicking those lessons about biodiversity, turning them into daily educational modules, and then pumping it out for up to [00:33:00] 10, 20,000 students.

We’re following along through schools through a live websites, those through satellite. Our youth ambassadors do the thing. Every day. We have faculty with us on the expeditions. They take the adventures, they create videos, threads that become educational modules, and then schools participate in the live website.

Everything we do is a hundred percent free, so it’s free for the kids to go on the expeditions. It’s free for schools free for everyone, me too. And I suppose with a lot of these expeditions, I mean, you you’ve been going on them for years on end. I suppose, what sort of in the back of your head, what’s motivating you when sort of times are tough, sort of what keeps you going to enjoy?

probably at the best of times in the desert or in the Arctic, such strange extreme conditions. Well look for starters, it’s my job, right? And I’m very fortunate that it’s [00:34:00] my job to be an Explorer. You know, it, it’s something that, is not lost on me that, you know, I, I truly enjoy and love what I do. I choose to do the things that I do.

So when I’m on those hard days out there, I remind myself that I made the choice to do this, you know, so. I mean, look at hard days are part of the deal. You accept it. If you’re going to do these things. So to dwell on those hard days, that’s why, and everybody’s got their thing. Everybody’s got their gig and the way they want to share what it is that they’re doing.

But I try not to focus too much when I’m on expeditions. On the day-to-day posts that I’m doing by satellite or whatever. I’m trying not to focus on that so much. Right? I obviously mentioned it, but I talk more about, Hey, I’m out here in the middle of , it’s the worst conditions we could have ever imagined, but I’m not talking so much about the conditions of time, but look at this view.

You know, like I’m, I’m, I’m [00:35:00] literally in a place where very few, if anyone’s ever been, you know, at a time of year, sometimes maybe somebody has been there, but not at that time a year. And so, so lost on me that drives me forward, but also the fact that I’m connected. With these schools who are so stoked to be part of my expedition, it’s like having extended teammates.

Right? And so it gives new meaning and purpose to the expedition itself, which excites me even more than getting to the other end of the expedition. I’ve had projects where I don’t finish. I’ve had projects where I’ve almost lost my life. I’ve had projects that have gone incredibly well. The vibe is always the same, you know?

I just pay you, can you go into detail on some of the projects where it hasn’t gone so well? Well, in 2017, I was, I think it was 2017 Dolan came on and get my dates wrong. It’s 2016 or 2017. I can’t remember in the winter. I was [00:36:00] doing a project in the Canadian Arctic in February with my buddy stuff. And all this was not a solo project.

It was the two of us together. And the goal was to take students on a journey across the Canadian Arctic in three completely different regions. And we would do free modes of winter travel in these three different regions. So the warmup was up in the mountains in Northern Labrador, in the, indigenous, territories of new Nunatsiavut and, Nunavik in that area.

And then, from there. So that was going to be the warm, it goes through these mountains, across these mountains, and then in snowshoes then unsupported. And then in the next one, ski across Baffin in February, which would be the hardest one because it’s Baffin Island in the middle of February and then finish fat biking.

snow bikes or fatbikes if you will, from Wrigley to Fort good hope in the Northwest territories. So everything done in the month of February, [00:37:00] basically. Right. And in the very first days of, and as a much longer story that I’ll eat up all your time. So I won’t go into the details cause you know, I’m, by now I tell long stories, but in testing, ice in a river Gorge, crossing these mountains in the very beginning, I was moving ahead of Stefano because I had the most experience.

In that area. He had the sleds and the, and our dog and I was on unhooked and I was testing ice. And I broke through this river with tremendous amount of current and was almost pulled under the ice to go a kilometer down river, never to be found again. Right. Like, I mean, it was a thin, so I was in this hole and I was like, with my.

That my snow shoes on that were pulling me under with the current. And so I was trying to work. My boots off was about minus 30. I was trying to work my boots off that couldn’t get them off. And with the current pulling against the snow shoes, right. Using that as leverage. And I, I, for sure, I was never going to see my family again, this is [00:38:00] how I was going to die and it was horrific and terrifying at the same time.

And. In a desperate move. I pulled as hard as I could with my right leg and my leg flung out of this hole. And the hole was kind of like not triangular shape, but sort of triangular shape at the end, that was away from me. And my crampon on my snowshoe hook, the edge of this hole on an angle. Like my leg was, it was so much forced that I pulled out with that.

It was just a momentum. And my leg was there and I pushed against that and I was able to get myself up. This was after being in the water for almost two minutes and I was able to get my body up onto the ice and then to a place that was safe enough that everything wasn’t going to all cadence definitely could pull me.

He pulled against me and I rolled same time and I covered myself in snow immediately to try and get as much moisture off myself as possible. Then I talked about that Canada goose jacket. I had my super heavy down jacket and down pants that were made for me, these crazy [00:39:00] minus 70 puffy bands. I should’ve put them on for the, for the podcasts so you can see them.

But anyhow, and I put all that stuff, got all my clothes off. I put all that stuff on. And it’s a much longer discussion, but I survived that moment. I could not believe that I survived. I was laughing as a matter of fact, because I’d lost my mind temporarily because I could not believe, I didn’t care that my boots were full of water and they were going to freeze to my feet and that potentially I would lose by feet.

I did not care if that was the deal, to be able to see my family again, take them. Take, I was w I’d never felt that way in my life before there was an absolute clarity in purpose and in, in what was important. Do you know what I mean? It was, it was, it was incredible for that. Anyhow, we eventually, we did not finish that section of the expedition, our photographer, who was photographing caribou way at the other end of this mountain range came by snow machine.

We hide the hike out. We got [00:40:00] to another point the day or two walking in. Snow storms to get to a point where we could set camp. And, he came and got us, but we went on by snow machine and then we flew out, but we went on to complete the next two sections of that expedition. Well, I was in bad shape, but I got it done, you know?

Yeah, that’s incredible. I think, as you say that sort of moment of clarity, when you were saying that I think 127 hours sort of came to me about Cameron. I think his name was Aaron where he got his hand stuck on a rock for 127 Avenue, 127 hours. And he said he would never take it back because at that moment, Of having to, I mean, he had a bit longer than two minutes, but he sort of, he realized what he was missing and what he was so looking for, what he really wanted.

And he got out, probably similar to you. You were sort of there clinging life ready. [00:41:00] And in your mind, you just wanted to see your family and you didn’t care what it took just to see your family again. Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s It’s one thing to you. Like, you know, when we say that, well, you know, I know what’s really important to me, you know, are a lot of things we say in life and day to day, that’s the beauty of adventure, I think, and, or, or anything that we do where we really challenge ourselves.

Right? Whether it’s adventure, whether it’s something else is that you push yourself to a point sometimes in whatever it is that you’re doing. That, that can be a negative push or positive push depending on how you look at it, but it brings you to a resolution clarity in specific moments and sayings that we use.

So, so often in life. And so, you know, the old wine, you know, I’m pretty sure I know what’s important. Let me tell you in that moment, I knew to me what was important. It was both the worst thing that ever happened to me on an expedition and the best thing that ever happened to me on an [00:42:00] expedition changed many other aspects of my life as well after I got home from that one.

Yeah. I think, a lot of the time people are sort of, sort of sleepwalking on a day to day life and they need some sort of kick or something just to snap them out of it, to suddenly realize. What they really want no saying that so similar to you, but a lot of the time, these moments of clarity really helped define what we really truly want.

We’ll take a look at it. And I think also it builds, you know, a way to often used word resiliency, take a look at, you know, COVID. Yeah. I mean, you know, you guys in London complete lockdown, right. And for some people. That’s a huge struggle if you’re not living in a, in a awesome flat with a space and a family and everybody’s hanging out and it’s good times if you’re flying solo, you’re alone in a, in a smaller flat that [00:43:00] has no windows.

Right. And, and that’s your existence, you know, everybody’s. Everybody’s existence again, it’s relative their experiences relative to them and how they internalize it. But I think as a global population going through COVID has taught us things about many aspects of life and what we’re capable of, you know, as humans when we rally together as well.

Right. So it’s like, it’s like a, kind of like a reset switch, you know, last year. I was, you know, the way I take care of obviously if I’m volunteering in my impossible bottle, I’m not making any money with impossible possible. I do all that work because it’s a passion for me as a volunteer, but I don’t.

Collect a paycheck when I’m on frozen sea ice, but I do God. I have a guiding business and I, which involves travel. I do speak all over the world at corporate events that involves travel well, my entire world completely shut down at [00:44:00] the end of February. but. You know, things could have been a lot worse.

And I think that, that we learned that in the different things that we do. And I’m very fortunate in my job as an, as, as an adventure and explore that I’ve learned that I can weather certain storms, you know what I mean? And, and you can get through it. Right. And, and I knew, and I always had this unwavering faith in humanity that people would start to figure things out.

People will get through this and. You know, even when they said, wow, you know, vaccines never been developed in, you know, it takes 10 years. That’s how, and when they first started talking about that, you know what, there are scientists and doctors and like nerds that are going to go crazy on this. And they’re going to just rise to the occasion for sure.

They’re going to figure out a way, well, it’s amazing what people have done and because they were pressed. They were pressed to do it cause they had no choice. Right. And [00:45:00] so now they’ve been able to come up with multiple effective vaccines. And I think that when we come out of this, people will. You’ll go to see your buddies at the pub.

And you’re going to appreciate that physical time together with your buddy. So much more, you know, as I will go into a coffee shop or whatever we do as groups of people, I think that human dynamic is going to be much more appreciated. Yeah, I agree. I think who’ll say, as you say, riding together, when you have governments left, right.

And center throw money on egg, every scientist putting their head together to work, work it out, you know, it’s amazing what humans can accomplish in such a short time, space of time. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. right. Say there’s a part of the show where we ask the same five questions to each guest each week.

And the first thing is when you’re on your expeditions and [00:46:00] adventures around the world, what’s the one bizarre thing that you crave or miss salmon salmon constantly. I get eat salmon like five times a day. Good. My wife won’t let me, because there’s, you know, it she’s an environmental science person. And so she said you can’t eat, you can’t eat salmon three times a day.

It’s not good for you to eat it every single day. So, so when you’re out in the middle of the desert, that’s what you’re craving dude. The first meal I’m having, that’s like, like a, full-on get down into the, like eating overeating is salmon is the main component food. So food is the thing I think about.

Yeah, I think, anyone who’s sort of doing ultra ultra marathons food is definitely a huge part of it. Yeah. do you have a favorite adventure book, a favorite adventure book? You know, I’ve read a couple of really good ones. One that [00:47:00] comes to mind that I’ve read recently is called frozen in time about the world war two pilots that crashed on Greenland.

And the planes got buried in the ice. And I forget who, Oh, writers, the writers name starts with a Zed. Okay. So people can find it. And then the other one, and you know, the other adventure book that. You know, it’s not called the Greeley expedition, but if people can find the book about the Greeley expedition to Ellesmere Hawks, crazy, I don’t even want to tell you what happens.

But my favorite book that I’ve read over the last few years is the secret life of trees, which is amazing. Okay. What’s I mean, no trees, communicating trees can communicate. You gotta read it. Okay. There’s science, it’s all science stuff. It’s amazing. Okay. did you have a sort of inspirational figure growing up Terry Fox?

[00:48:00] Terry folks, probably for myself and some of the listeners who, who is Terry ferry boxes, the greatest of all times he was a Canadian is a Canadian hero icon. He attempted to run across Canada on the marathon of hope. So I’m sure you’ve heard about Jerry Fox day that you guys have it in the UK for the Terry Fox foundation and Terry Fox lost his leg to cancer and ran across Canada.

So look them up for people that don’t know. Incredible incredible. Okay. The other heroes, you know, Richard Webber, polar Explorer, who I became very close friends with and his family, was a huge adventure mentor to me. So just an incredible guy. Amazing. And do you have a sort of favorite Quate or motivational quote?

You know, so that’s a really good question. I mean, I [00:49:00] don’t, I mean, I, you know, I I’ve sort of made up some silly ones on my own. Like when people have asked me about, you know, these things, you know, what is endurance? Like, what is the physical aspect of it? Like, how do you get it done? I always say, well, it’s 90% mental and the other 10% is all in your head, but that’s not really, that’s like my crappy quote.

So I’m trying to think of like a quote that really. I dunno. I read a lot of quotes that I love. I just can’t seem to, my brain doesn’t remember things anymore, but I know when I see it, you know? Yeah. Okay. Well, we’ll take the 10%. and I suppose people listening are always keen to go on these adventures and expeditions, like you, what’s the one thing that you would recommend them to do to get started.

You know, as corny as it sounds, it’s come up with a goal. And when you have a goal, no matter how longterm it is, and you really want that thing to happen, it will eventually happen if you really [00:50:00] want it, it will happen. Okay. Let’s come up with the idea, no matter how you know, I’m going to climb Everest someday.

Okay. You probably will. I’ve had people say stuff to me and they think that the response is going to be Asher, whatever it’s always. Yeah, well, probably will happen. You know, I think one of them that is very important is to write it down. Yeah, sure. If that’s, if that’s what it takes, then you write it down and carry it with you every day.

Right? Penny, if you write what you want down, it sort of goes to your subconscious and deep down, you sort of say right. That’s what you want. That’s what you need. Law of attraction. Yeah. And I suppose, people are wondering, what are you doing now? And how can people follow your journey? Well, you know, I’m obviously, you know, I’m newer to Instagram, but I am on there.

so I’ve got a page. I have a Facebook page I’ve been on there forever. So I’ve got a couple of Facebook pages, but I have a public Facebook page, a [00:51:00] little blue check beside my name. I post there regularly. I’m on LinkedIn, Twitter, blah, blah, blah. But I have a website, just my name res ahab.com. And that has linked to my charity.

It has links to the impossible possible website, so you can follow me there. And then if people are interested in any of the trips or our online cafe, we have amazing coffee. you can check out CAPIC one.com and I don’t think there’s a link from my personal site. You’d have to find it, but we are we’re on Instagram as well.

Amazing. And finally, I’m sure everyone is wondering, what’s next? Yeah. You know what? I, I’m very superstitious and so I know what’s next, but I never say until I’m a hundred percent sure that it’s going to happen because I don’t like putting stuff out there that I can’t make happen. I’m very much a stickler on by Sam going to do it.

I’m going to do it. And so, you know, with COVID and with everything else going on. Just stay tuned and then we’ll [00:52:00] pick it up from there. Well, maybe you’ll have me back on and then I can tell you about how it goes. Well, it’s lucky we weren’t doing this last Friday. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, yeah, I would absolutely love that once you’ve done it.

Come back on and tell us how it all went. Awesome. Love to, well, Ray, thank you so much for coming on and yeah, we look forward to whatever your next adventure holds. We’ll be following with keen eyes. Thanks, John. All right. Thank you so much. Have a great day. Thank you, Ray.

EP.009: Emily Scott

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Emily Scott (ADVENTURE athlete)

Emily Scott features in Project 282, an incredible 4-month solo, an unsupported and self-propelled journey around all of Scotland’s Munros. It’s an achievement, especially as she had only previously been up 40 Munros, all on day trips. On this week’s Podcast, we talk about the highs and low of that incredible journey.

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Video Podcast

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Transcript of our Conversation

 Emily Scott 

[00:00:00] MA Podcast – Emily Scott video 1_2: I think I kind of just go into my sleeping bag and like maybe, about five minutes after that a car drove past and then the car stopped and reversed back. And I was like lying there being like, Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness.

For everyone listening. Why don’t you tell us about yourself? sure. so I’m Emily, Scott. I am currently residing in Edinburgh, but I grew up in Northern Ireland. and then I, Emily, how did you get into adventuring? I guess, well, so I grew up in the countryside in Northern Ireland. So kind of the outdoors has always been quite important.

but I wouldn’t have [00:01:00] necessarily called myself outdoorsy per se. but then after I graduated from uni, I moved down to London and I worked as a chartered accountant. And I think when I was kind of. Office based in London, I kind of started searching for more and more of, I think it kind of was more like, challenges to start with.

So kind of like started doing triathlons and things, and then the triathlons gradually got longer and then it slightly became more like, Oh, I don’t know if I actually need a, a race to do, or if I just go and think up something to, to go out and do instead, Yeah. So I think, I think that was probably part of it kind of getting into kind of your physical challenges.

and then, I decided to leave accountancy to pursue a career in ski instructing. Although now I’m kind of slightly trying to amalgamate the [00:02:00] two a bit more and I’m finding myself doing much more accountancy right now. And a ski instructor can look slightly off the cards this winter, but, yeah.

It’s so I guess, yeah, just kind of doing like, I guess, tying in the kind of challenges side that I’d probably been building up over the kind of 20. Today 2010 to 2015 say, and then kind of doing more in the mountains with like ski instructing and, just, and then kind of just, I guess, amalgamating the two and being like, well, I quite like pushing myself physically, and now I feel more confident in doing that out with a verb, like con like set structure, competition kind of thing.

So then I kind of started, yeah. Thinking a bit more about doing my own adventures and things and yeah, I guess, so it just kind of as a bit of a progression from there, and I mean, I still. It’s funny. Cause actually now I slightly find I’m still like wanting a bit more kind of [00:03:00] racing and a bit more structure back again.

Whereas I think I had a few years that I kind of completely went away from that and now I’m actually would quite like a bit of that, but also I really enjoy a bit of, kind of my own adventures. And I find now that they don’t sometimes like them to be really tough, but other times I actually liked them to be enjoyable.

so I guess it’s just, yeah. What was the, what was the trigger that sort of made you decide? Right. Accounts see out, adventures and scheme was in, was there something that triggered it? I think it was quite a, it was quite a long process. Really? It was quite a, yeah, it, I guess essentially, like, I wasn’t always, I just always feel a bit lame talking about this because I’m like, Oh, I don’t think I was that happy, which just kind of.

Yeah, I think, you know, that was kind of the, like the like underlying feeling though is I wasn’t like particularly satisfied I guess. And, so it was kind of, [00:04:00] you know, it was like, especially going through the charter accountancy qualifications, you know, there’s a lot of, a lot of studying involved and things.

And so I’d basically be at the outlet, especially when I was around exam time, I’d be in the office and then I’d go home and I’d sit at my desk and I’d carry on or at my kitchen table as it was, and I’d carry on and, you know, keep studying and, And I think then I kind of, you know, I started definitely kind of chasing the weekends quite a lot and becoming, you know, a bit more of a like weekend warrior and, you know, really trying to cram everything into my weekend.

And, you know, I’d find like the last, certainly six months I was living in London, I probably was driving to the lakes or to Snowdonia to the Brackens like kind of every other weekend. And the amount of times I was sitting in on the Sunday evening coming in with all the traffic coming back into London on the M four and.

I think it was one of those things that I definitely, I mean, there’s part of it that the amount of times that I had, you know, that scare whenever you’re driving and you’re really tired. And you kind of feed yourself, like starting to like nod off. [00:05:00] Like I think I had that happen probably a few too many times that that was like, something needs to stop here.

And I think, you know, it was kind of, I guess, burning the candle at both ends and stuff. So, I guess that’s kind of maybe part of it. And then, you know, I felt like I was getting so much more fulfillment out of the days that I was spending out in the Hills and, you know, especially if I was out with friends or whatever, and like pushing myself and seeing like, I think I quite like.

On a challenge. I really enjoy this part. Whenever you kind of, you feel like you can’t really go on anymore, but then actually you just keep going and then it’s like, Oh, actually, that wasn’t so bad anyway. And kind of just kind of stretching that, like, I guess it’s kind of your comfort zone. And like, I definitely find that each time you do something that you push yourself harder than each time it’s.

You know, it’s a little bit harder to push yourself harder, if that makes sense. like I always kind of think of it. It’s a bit like a balloon, like, you know, whenever you blow it up, like really wide and then you bring it back in, it’s never quite goes back [00:06:00] to quite as small as it was the first time. And I think you’ve kind of comfort zones a bit like that as well, in the sense it goes like a bit wider each time.

and yeah, I guess, so there was definitely an element of just trying to like, see like, you know, what. Well, I could kind of push myself to do or things like that as well. this is the Lisa sanctum, but yeah, I dunno. I think, I mean, I kind of know this is a funny one because I think a lot of people find it really odd that I’m an accountant.

And, you know, I think there’s this kind of preconception that accountants are really dull and like spreadsheets and stuff, and don’t get me wrong. I can be really dull and I do like spreadsheets, but I mean, I don’t know. I think there’s, I work in, private client tax most of the time and that’s kind of, yeah.

She get like, quite a sense of like your clients and stuff and you kind of, so it’s quite interesting in a kind of geeky way on, I’m not sure I’m selling this as being interesting. [00:07:00] But I think what I found, like the kind of the level I was at, I don’t really have much interaction with clients. Like, you know, I kind of would get a feel for them in the sense of I’m looking at their bank statements and seeing what they’re spending money on and being like, Oh, this person went to like zoom out.

So they’d probably go skiing and stuff. And literally that’s the kind of thing that I would like to do. I’d be like, Oh, that’s an interesting place. but yeah, I kind of wasn’t having any like, actual like client interaction and whilst, you know, working in an office is good in the sense of you’ve got colleagues to talk to and stuff.

Like, I definitely felt that I perhaps didn’t have as much in common with my colleagues is, you know, basically on a Monday morning, I’m going to be like, Oh, how was your weekend? What did you get up to? And I’d be like, Oh, I was in the Lake district or they went hiking and like we camped and we let David out and it was great.

And people were like, what’s a, bivy kind of like, they’re like, are you crazy? You do weird things at the weekends. Yeah. You sort of looked at, the people in your office and rather than looking up to them, sort of aspiring to [00:08:00] be them, you look to them and thought, Hm, not, not really the life I, I want. Yeah, I guess there’s, there’s probably an element of that.

I mean, obviously, you know, there’s kind of, there’d be certain parts that I would, you know, aspire to be like, and, you know, obviously like professionally and stuff, definitely look up to them and. It’s a funny one, because it’s definitely not to say that I didn’t get on with my colleagues because, you know, in general I actually, yeah.

I tend to get on with most people, but I think maybe kind of the, the aspect of actually not having that much kind of real like interaction. I mean, there’s one thing I absolutely love about ski teaching is that, you know, you’re with your clients the whole time and you can build like a genuine rapport with them and, you know, actually like having conversations and yeah, you’re trying to make them better at skating, but you’re also sitting on the chairlift and having a chat and like, You know, it’s kind of an, trying to help them have a nice time.

Cause they’re on the holiday. Yeah. so yeah, I guess that’s part of it. So what was the first big one that you, because you said you were doing sort of [00:09:00] triathlons and iron mans and marathons before. Yeah. Yeah. So I think like the first. So I did, remember this pretty clearly. I think it was, new year’s Eve of like the end of 2012 before I was going out with some friends.

Like this is when I was still living in London. I was going out with some friends that evening. And before I went out, I made a pretty rash decision and I went onto the iron man website and I signed up time on whales for 2013. And I was like, right. That’s that’s my goal for next year. I’m going to do on my whales.

And, I think, cause that year I’d kind of done. I got up as far as like half Ironman distance. but it was like, right. I’m going to. Step up and do an Ironman. An Ironman Wales has got a bit of a reputation as being quite tough. And I was kind of like, yeah, that sounds good. And also I’m in, you know, as UK based, so it’s kind of a bit easier to get to less travel logistics and stuff.

yeah. So I guess that was kind of the main thing to kind of work towards in 2013. And then I certainly kind of [00:10:00] once the. You know, Easter kind of came around and triathlon season started, like, I was probably doing like triathlons, most weekends, I was playing hockey as well. So I’d like play hockey on a Saturday and then go and do a triathlon on the Sunday.

Seemed to be kind of what I did most weekends that year. It seemed, and then kind of, I did like a few, like, you know, like a hundred mile cycles motifs, and like I did a. I did a 10 K swimmer Eaton Dorney, which was pre EDA. I’m not going to lie. So me round and round a Lake for four hours or whatever it was, it’s just like, but I think I find kind of the iron man, I basically had said that I wanted to do each of the elements of the iron man, like individually to know that I could do them before, like going in, I’m trying to put them all together.

And I actually, I ended up doing another full distance race, but before whales, but I’m not an Ironman branded, but, but it was on the flat, so it was okay. But yeah, I mean, Wales, Wales is a toughie. but I definitely, [00:11:00] I mean, I’d love to go back and do it again, to be honest, it’s just. I haven’t as yet.

but yeah, I think kind of after, after that, I kind of said that I was going to try and do like an Ironman. well I made a pact with myself that I do one every year until I turned 30. so I had like, I think it was, what was it at the time? 25, I guess. So it was five in five years was kind of the goal.

and yeah, so I ended up doing the. the following year I did, I tried to do that, Eric and I managed to break my bike because I had a really stupid fall the day before the race, a lot of cycling to transition, or like went over some tramlines and didn’t quite realize, and it was raining. And then the next thing I was on the ground and.

Didn’t think anything much of it. I kind of got the bike mechanics to check over my bike and stuff and then the next day, so it, well, bike started fine. And then her hell changed the gear and my whole rear derailer just shed off and yeah, I tried to get them to fix my bike and make it into like a single, [00:12:00] single gear kind of thing, but just didn’t work.

So, yeah, that wasn’t great. I went back into Zurich again a couple of years ago though. So it’s a really nice course. I think that was actually my last one to hit the like five, four 30 or whatever. okay. And so from, from doing the iron mans, did you do the sort of five years, five iron mans, five, five years.

Five iron mans? Yeah, I think I did. Oh yeah. I did one every year for. I guess 20, 20, 13 to 2018, I did one a year, and kind of threw in another couple of non-branded ones, which I hate iron. Man’s kind of like got me so brainwashed that I’m like, Oh, it doesn’t actually have the iron man brand on it.

Therefore it doesn’t count, but actually some of them are harder. yeah, I did one actually called evergreen, which I did last year. That’s in the Alps and I tried it. In 2017 and [00:13:00] mess the bike cutoff. Like the weather was awful. I was basically hypothermic. didn’t have a great day, but I got to show him and he eventually on the, on the bike, but, you know, I kind of missed the cutoff to go out on the run by about an hour, I think.

and, and they actually ended up shooting in the run because of so much snow, which isn’t really what you. What you want whenever you’re doing triathlon. but yeah, I went and did that again last year. And like, again, I was like right up against the cutoff, but she just snuck in, and I mean, that was no offense to Ironman, but so much harder, like, just because it was basically cause it starts so it’s in, Moore’s in the swim.

And then it goes over to Chamonix and I feel like it takes in every call, but you can find between moves in and Chamonix. It’s like something like 5,000 meters of a sentence on the bike, over 190 K. And then the run is what I say run very much in advert Tacoma is the hike. the night, gaze up, like from [00:14:00] Chamonix, it kind of does like one loop on one side of the Valley and one loop on the other side of the Valley.

So you’ve got kind of over 2000 meters of a center on the. On the run as well. So, yeah, like it’s, it’s just a very different game to iron man really. Cause you know, I’m very like sleek and you know, it’s just like really like a well-oiled machine and like, you know, they’ve got like everything. So like, I don’t know, it’s a funny one.

Cause it’s, it’s awesome. Like, don’t get me wrong. I like actually really enjoy an iron man. And like, the atmosphere is so good and everything, but you know, they totally know what they’re doing and they have the whole setup and everything like work so smoothly. And you know, you don’t really have to think that much.

You just have to get on with what you’re doing and you know, you’re thinking about what you’re doing and pushing yourself and stuff. whereas I think I’ve agreed. Just because you necessarily go that bit slower because it’s so much more up and down that, you know, you’ve probably got a bit more thinking time and maybe like more tactics and stuff, and it’s just like a much smaller field.

So, but yeah, no, [00:15:00] it’s when did you make the jump from sort of organized trip, organized events into your own adventures? Like project two eight, two. Yeah. So I think, quite a key point probably for me was this was when I was still in London and it was after I’d done my first iron man. So after I’d done Wales in 2013, one of my really good friends was living in New Zealand at the time, but he, grew up in Wales and basically it’s funny cause I like remember this so clearly, like I remember sitting at my desk in London and he sent me a message.

He sent me a message on WhatsApp and said, check your Facebook. And I had sent this link on Facebook that was to this adventurer school, doTERRA whales. It was in 2014 and he was like, I want to do this race. Basically. He was like, we need to go. You’re the girl. How do you feel kind of thing? cause it’s yeah, like it’s teams of four and yeah, it’s got to be mixed teams.

And I actually, yeah, I mean, I basically clicked on the link and didn’t [00:16:00] really look into it that much and was like, yeah, that looks fun. It’s in Wales. It’s got like mountain biking and kayaking and like rotten egg and stuff. Like, yeah, sure. Why not? So I was like, yes, I’m out. and I think that was actually like a really.

Kind of formative thing, because then kind of through that, like the three guys that I did it with, like, you know, we’ve become like really good friends over the years and like we’ve done loads of things together. And I guess just kind of in the, like, preparing for that, you know, we kind of, that was probably when I was, you know, as I was saying, like driving up to the lakes or driving up to Snowdonia and stuff that that was kind of, a lot of that was cause we were getting in like practice weekends and getting out bikes and things like that.

And I think kind of the, the, again, I guess in adventurous, you know, is. It’s it’s organized, it’s set up, but you’ve got so much more like ownership over it, you know, not, you’ve kind of got certain points that you’ve got to go to, but you don’t necessarily have to go to all the checkpoints. Like you kind of can decide because some of them, you might get X number of points for going there, or you might get a time [00:17:00] deduction if you don’t go there.

So you might decide actually it’s not worth us going there for those points. And we’ll take this route to go there and said, and I think, you know, you’ve got so much more control over your own destiny. that, that probably. Yeah, I guess maybe kind of started things to be a bit more like, Oh, actually this is maybe like more kind of what I’m into than necessarily just like following race, marketer, race, market, race, marker.

and I think it’s like, it’s totally different kind of the psychological side. Cause you know, if you’re in a race environment, like you don’t necessarily have to like. Worry about looking after yourself so much that you’re just trying to like push yourself and trying to go as hard as you can. And I think that’s something that I probably don’t go as hard as I used to go in terms of, like, I probably don’t go as fast as I used to.

And I’m certainly, I’m trying to get kind of a bit more back into running at the moment and I’m certainly get frustrated cause I’m like, Oh, I used to be so much quicker, but you know, it’s kind of, it is what it is. Whereas, you know, feel kind [00:18:00] of in a more. Either an adventure race or else just like, you know, your own adventures that you’ve kind of decided, Oh, I want to go and do this or whatever.

Then, you know, you’ve got to be much more in control of your own destiny. And certainly, you know, then it’s kind of like, you’re the only person who can keep yourself safe, especially if you’re doing Sodo stuff. So that’s certainly, I guess, on to project two it two, which is when I climbed the Scottish man Rose, that was kind of, it was just me out there a lot of the time.

So, you know, the best way to. Get out of trouble is to not get into trouble in the first place. And I think that was kind of like a really key thing. And, you know, especially when you’re somewhere remote or, you know, mountainous environments and stuff, like, obviously there’s so many factors that are outside of your control, but then there’s also a lot that you can control.

And I think, you know, you’ve just got to, like, I’m never going to be like super fast or anything over that kind of like in the mountains, like, because it’s just like, I just, yeah. I mean, I’m not like. Ridiculous athlete or anything like that. And I’m not trying to get above myself or anything [00:19:00] like that.

You know, it’s kind of like, I just keep going. Like, I’m kind of quite uploader and I’ll just kind of keep plodding on. And, but you know, it’s, I think. I’m really not making much sense. but yeah, just kind of the whole, like nature of, if you’re, if you’re doing your own adventures and your own challenges and stuff, then like it’s up to you to keep yourself safe and you don’t have the kind of whole like, supported environment that you have with the race.

And I think that kind of. Yeah, that really appeals to be honest, like I do really like doing that and I mean, I go, the there’ll be times I’ll do something that is like a really normal route to do, but I might decide, Oh, I’m going to do it and try and do it quicker or something and have that as like, kind of my challenge and.

By the very nature of trying to do something quicker than, you know, you might end up being out places that people wouldn’t normally be. So like, for example, like in the apps, like some of the trails are absolutely stunning and stuff. And during the day in the summer, there’ll be like, there’s loads of people around, like everybody like loves going hiking in the Alps and whatever.

But then if you’re kind of there, [00:20:00] like first thing in the morning or last thing in the evening or in the night and something you’ve got the chest and it’s like, it’s a totally different experience. Like, even if you’re somewhere that, you know, like. During the day might be like you’ve got loads of people around.

I think, and so for, for people listening, just to give an overview or project two eight, two, it was a four month Sailo expedition. Yeah, so project to, cool to it too, because there’s 282 Munros in Scotland. so the Monroes of the mountains that are over 3000 feet and they were listed by, a guy called human row back in, I think it was like 1901 or something.

He created the Monterey tables. and they’re like, you know, it’s quite a popular peak bagging. thing to do is to go into, to go and climb them on res. and so basically project to it to kind of came around because I decided that I’d quote, I wanted to climb the wall. And then I [00:21:00] think it was just kind of the.

You know, the kind of triathlon background that we’ve touched upon that I was like, Oh, you know, it’d be kind of cool to do them like, and be self-powered in between them. and I mean, there’s, there’s been other people who’ve done different rates, so they’re kind of, there’s actually a guy Donnie Campbell who just broke the record this summer and did all the Monroes and.

32 days. I think it was like, which just absolutely blows my mind. Like the days that he was putting it out there, I just read it like so hard. It’s kind of like some of them, I was like, he did, it took me two weeks to do that day that he did, you know, it’s so. I’m in that hit the nature of the challenge is obviously quite different.

Like he was like supported. And so I think his wife was with him in a camper van and was able to like move his bike. And so his challenge was definitely like a hugely, hugely athletic challenge. But, you know, kind of needed like the support to be [00:22:00] able to like, so you can take a more direct route and get around them.

Whereas I kind of went for like, right, I’m just going to do this myself. So by very nature being on my own, just me and my bike, it meant all my routes had to come back to my bike. so I definitely added on kind of. Yeah. Quite a bit of distance from like the fastest possible route or the shortest possible route.

Should I say? so yeah, so I, yeah. Cycled between the Hills and, yeah, climbed up them to just under four months doing it. I think it was 2,200 kilometers on foot in 2000. 400 on the bike or something. I should really know this off the top of my head, but it was over 2000 kilometers on both bike and fur.

And it kind of equated to, I think on average, it was about climbing Everest from C-level each week on foot was kind of my, like a sense stats roughly until like the last week, which was just like stupid and like, by the day, like 18,000 meters or something. [00:23:00] Oh, wow. So you were doing the full month Trek on your own.

how did you find, or how do you find sleeping on your own in the wild? I’m fine. Yeah, because I think for a lot of people listening, this wild camping on your own, I mean, the first time I did it was actually in America, but I remember thinking. The first few times is quite sort of nerve-wracking and you’re sort of wondering, I mean, if you’re out in the middle of the Scottish Highlands, maybe a bit different from the side of the road, but in terms of the sort of feeling that you had from it, I, I remember the first few times I was very sort of nervous, quite wondering if I was going to be told off, moved away.

You, you, you do think of these sort of horror stories in your head. [00:24:00] it’s, it’s actually funny that you mentioned the side of the road thing because actually the one time that I was slightly less comfortable with the whole trip was quite, quite early on. And I had, I was up in the far Northwest of Scotland and I had been to a pub and had a really nice evening in the pub after I did some Hills that day.

And then I like set off in the public probably at like midnight or something on cycle, maybe another hour up the road. And I bear in mind. I had, at this point I had a trader behind me and I was cycling like slowly. Like it’s not, I was probably averaging about 10 K an hour and I had the trader on. and I cycled a bit out the road and then eventually I just was like, right.

This’ll do. And like pulled into like a passing place and, pitch my tent, like literally like at the side of the road. And I think I kind of just go into my sleeping bag and like, baby, that. Five minutes after that a car drove past and then the car stopped and reversed back. And I was like, lying about being like, Oh my goodness.

Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. and then it just drove on. I think it, obviously, I think it just all there like reflective bits of my tent and was probably like, what on [00:25:00] earth is that? And then was like, Oh, it’s some idiot camping in the label. I basically, but that was probably the most scared I was to be honest with the whole trip.

but I mean, yeah, the rest of the time, I think I’m pretty sure. Pretty comfortable with kind of camping and stuff. Anyway. It’s weird because now I really don’t think anything of it, but I’ve basically spent kind of three summers living in a tent now. cause the summer, either side of that, I was working in the Alps and I was working on like a camping and hiking trip.

So it was staying at campsites, but still like staying in a tent pretty much every night for the whole summer. but I think kind of before I did a project to it too, I did kind of, once I decided I was going to do it, it was probably about the. The November the year before, and I was up in Scotland and I decided to kind of take myself out and do a bit of a, like, kind of do some testing days and, I actually was a really good at a really good idea because I had some pretty, pretty tough days in November in Scotland.

So then whenever I was on actual like, project at two, [00:26:00] then I was like, Oh yeah, I mean, this is tough, but at least it’s not snowing or whatever, you know, there was always kind of something else that had happened in November. That was worse. So, but yeah, I think on that, that was actually the first time I stayed in a bothy on my own.

And I mean, I could easily see how I could have been a bit like. Freaked out by it. But actually I think that day I was just so glad to get to both of you, because it was like raining slash snowing. It was just kind of sleety and cold and dark. And it had been dark for probably about five hours before I got to the body.

So it was mainly just like, Oh, I’m so glad to be here. but yeah, I think it was more kind of the next day. I was like, Oh, that was actually like my first night in a Buffy on my own. And like, but yeah, I think in a way kind of with, once those are in project too. Yeah. Generally, I was so tired by the time I got into my tent or got into the bothy or whatever.

Like by the time I got to bed, I didn’t really care where I was. I just wanted to go to sleep. So that probably helped. Yeah. I, I, there was a time I just sort of, as you were [00:27:00] speaking, thinking back that, I was in America and I decided to wild camp on the side of a trail, about half a mile outside of the local village.

Yeah. And, anyway, I, because it was pitch black, when I decided to camp, I didn’t realize by just camp right next to a train track. And in the morning, a freight train comes past and before they get to each village, they always sound the horn. And I just happened to be at the right perfect place just as they sound the horn.

So at five in the morning, suddenly my head was just explaining with this noise and I was like, What is going on?

Yeah, that’s funny. I got you out of here. Got me out of my bed very quickly. Yeah, I think it’s a funny one. Cause I feel like actually probably in America isn’t me, I’d probably be a bit more wary about like wild camping and stuff. Just because of like the animals, it’d be like, you know, if you’ve got BAS or snakes or, you know, at least in Scotland, like you [00:28:00] kind of worry about, Midge’s not so bad.

Like once you’re in your Ted, text texts was probably the thing that I was like most scared of actually. Cause that’s just gross. yeah. Yeah. And so on that trip, what was the sort of best part of it? Did you find. Oh, I mean, how do I have, I did, it’s a funny one because it’s kind of, I feel like I probably have a different answer every time I think about that question, Mike, it’s kind of, you know, there’s, there’s certain days that are definite highlights, certain Hills, like.

certain places, which are just incredible that, you know, I wouldn’t have visited before. Like I think kind of a lot of, like before I did project two, I hadn’t really explored that much North of the great Glen. so the great glimpse has been the fault line up from Fort William to Inverness. so I hadn’t really visited like much like the proper like Northern Highlands.

think like the Northwest of Scotland is [00:29:00] just incredible. Like there’s some amazing places and some places where like, You literally feel like you could be the only person in the world, like, you know, you kind of just like, it feels like really remote still. I mean, but realistically, you know, you’re never.

Probably, you know, you’re probably a day’s walk from a road is probably the most you’re ever going to get. but yeah, I mean, so there’s some like incredible places. So the likes of Knoydart, which is like, it’s known as the rough bounds of Knoydart and it’s yeah. It’s It is remote. Like you kind of, you either get there on a boat or else you walk in or else see, like there’s a road that goes down.

That’s like a 22 mile long single track road. a dead end. say that, that was a pretty big highlight. like the Fisher feels and like an act like up in the far Northwest they’re like incredible Hills. but I think it’s, it’s also one of those things that it’s kind of like. It’s if the weather’s good, you’re probably going to be in a good frame of mind.

Anyway, if you’ve had a good night’s [00:30:00] sleep the night before, you’re probably going to be having a nice day. if you bump into nice people on the Hills who talk to you, like, you know, that’s like, especially if you haven’t seen anyone for a few days, like I remember was one place I had, it was a storm.

Hector had hit the UK, so I’d had quite a tough few days and I basically was on like a kind of. I plan to be away from my bike for five days. And then I ended up being away for six days and I’d run out of gas on like the last morning. So I couldn’t make my porridge and I wasn’t quite desperate enough to go for cold porridge.

but then I met these people just when I was maybe about 10 K away from my bike and I’d been walking maybe 20 K already that day, but I hadn’t really had any. Just like a handful of nuts and that was about it. And they gave me a Twix and it was the best thing she liked, you know, that was like a genuine highlight.

It’s just a Twix, but you know, it’s kind of all the circumstances that add together to make it. I think probably in terms of like, if I have to pick out like a single kind of like standout really good day, there [00:31:00] was, I had an amazing day in Glencoe, when I did the anarchy kick. and that was like, kind of, I think, cause it’s, it’s got quite a big reputation, like it’s, it’s two Monroe’s, but it’s like the Ridge line that’s I think it’s the narrowest Ridge on the UK mainland.

and so yeah, it was, Definitely like it was the last one that was kind of the like intimidating Monroe’s that I had left. and I remember I kind of switched my days around because the day that I did it, like I wanted to do it in good weather. And I just had like one. Good weather day whenever I was kind of around there.

And I was like, right. That’s the day did he? And Akiko and yeah, it just, like, everything kind of came together. I had like a lovely bike ride up to it and then did the Ridge and then dropped down to the road. And then I went up the other side of the Glen and did like the other two, my rows and got back to my bike and cycle down the road and got to the pub three minutes before last orders.

So it was just like, you know, everything just kind of came together to make a wonderful day. but yeah, I mean, [00:32:00] I didn’t, I mean, I think there’s just so many different. Yeah. Different days that had like, you know, genuine highlights. And I think sometimes, you know, some days were really tough and really hard, but then they were maybe the days that actually now, whenever I look back on it, perhaps I enjoyed the most, or actually, maybe they’re the ones that I feel like I got the most out of, or, you know, kind of, I guess, learnt the most or that kind of thing.

Like, I had one day, like right in my last week for, it was another name storm, storm alley. I don’t he’ll ever forget still Molly. And, it was, yeah, it was the Wednesday. And I was finishing on the Saturday and I still had like a lot of Hills to go, like, I’d set myself like a real, like, tough push to the end.

and yeah, I just remember, like, it was rain was lashing down in the morning. Like we’re staying in a, like, we’d stayed in a, Like got an apartment or like a little house, like for a few days kind of based around latte for a few days and was kind of like working out and [00:33:00] back. And basically I’d kind of given up camping by the end because the weather was just so awful.

And I was putting in like big day after big day and I just, yeah, it didn’t have any reserves left basically. But yeah, that day, I remember saying just like looking at the word, they’d be like, do I really have to come out in that? I’m looking at the weather forecast being like this isn’t a sensible day to go up a Hill at all.

Like, you know, it’s kind of like, you know, weather warnings for wind and rain. Like, yeah, I think kind of hundred mile an hour kind of wins. Like not, not the day that you’d recommend to anyone to go out. And also probably the only day on the whole thing that I was like, I genuinely can’t call for help today because I can’t.

Put someone else in the position, like I can’t call for mountain rescue today and get a mountain rescue team to come out and like, take me off a mountain on a day that I shouldn’t have been out in the Hills at all kind of thing. So it was a. Yeah, it was a weird one. I definitely self that day being like, I’m probably going to turn around in about five minutes and actually I made it up one Monroe, but then I was meant to like, my route was meant to go over to [00:34:00] another Monroe.

And as soon as I kind of got onto the first one, right. I realized that the only reason I got up it was because the bulk of the mountain was shielding me from the worst of the weather. And once I got to the summit, I’m like, I couldn’t stand up. Basically. It was like, right. yeah, that was a very quick turn around and go back down.

Get warm, get dry three hot chocolates in front of a fire and above that kind of fixed things up. But, yeah. So on your, so you said sort of going up the bridge line and you could barely stand up. Would you say that was the most challenging part of the expedition or were there many. Days and hours, nights.

Yeah. I mean, I think in terms of kind of physicality, the kind of last week was like really tough and like the last kind of, yeah, basically. Cause after, after I turned around and still Molly, then my effectively like lost kind of what I was meant to, you know, my plan would have been to have done three Monroe’s that day and then it meant that I kind of had to wait and then start again the next morning.

[00:35:00] And then basically, so that Thursday, Friday, Saturday, that last three days was just like, it felt like I was in like a solo adventure race just on my own against my own like arbitrarily set deadlines and stuff. But the thing was basically for the last one I had, like, I needed like logistical help and stuff because the last one was, Ben Lomond, which is the further South and the way that I came at it, I.

Was crossing lot of claimants. So I had like friends who parked up at the Ben Lomond side and then came across in a canoe and some paddleboards and Matt met the other side. And so my bike got then taken around and I like sucked across. But, well I sat on my knees and puddled across cause I was a bit too much of a space cadet to even stand up at this point.

I think in my. Initially, I thought I’d kind of liked the idea of swimming across it, but I just remember, like, I just kept looking at a lot lower than when I was on like the Hills kind of the two days before. Like every time I kind of took a glimpse of the lock, I was just like, it’s so big. And it looks so cold from here.

And actually then my friends who came over, they were like, you’re not swimming. Cause [00:36:00] you’re just going to get hypothermic. And you’re going to, like have to end in an ambulance and not climb the lost Hills kind of thing was the, even though how to wetsuit, it was still, But yeah, I mean, I basically, the night before I had had.

I sat in my baby bag for about an hour and a bit kind of just waiting for it to get light because I was just a bit scared basically, which sounds a bit silly. I was just scared of the dark. yeah, no, I think I was just like the night before I was getting so tired, I was like hallucinating and stuff.

And I, at one point thought that I was convinced I saw a crane and it was like the definitely wasn’t a crane where I was. And you know, it’s kind of like all sorts of random things. And I was like, Oh, but there’s a crane and it’s building a bothy and then I can go and stay in the Buffy. And then I’m like, I’m going to fall off the, like, I’m just gonna like fall over and hurt myself or something.

You know, it’s kind of the next progression. But, on this podcast, we talk quite a lot about the sort of mindset of doing these adventures. What sort of Dre drives you [00:37:00] when times are tough sort of being in horrendous situations and sort of pushing through what’s the sort of drive in the back of your head?

I swear to you to keep going rather than to quit. Yeah. I mean, I think it kind of depends like, I guess kind of why you’re doing it and what you’re trying to achieve and stuff. And I think, I mean, for me on that last night, like by that point, there was no question. I mean, not finishing, like, you know, I was just like, everything was bent on getting to the finish line and, you know, I’d already spent like 119 days out in Scotland.

Like, you know, what’s one extra day and two extra Hills or whatever it was. So that, but I mean, I actually, I think probably the, yeah, The point that I was like most likely to quit with. it was in Glen active. So it just, just down from Glencoe, like where Skyfall was filmed, if you’re a James Bond fan, but I’d had, I think it was like three days in a row that had just been raining the whole time.

And I’d been in my tent the whole time. And I was just like, I think that was basically the point that I gave up camping actually, I think, [00:38:00] and started being like, Oh, credit cards are very useful. but it, Yeah. I think that I’ve got a video that I did in the morning. I was just, you know, talking to talking to the camera and kind of just being like, yeah, I’ve got to put on all my wet stuff again and go out in the rain again.

And I was getting more and more miserable and then I just suddenly burst into tears and it’s just like, Oh, I wish I was like inside and stuff. And I think genuinely that day, if, if there had been someone there with the car being like, you can just get in the car and be done now and be finished, I probably would have been like, yeah, sure.

I’ll take you up on that. But as it was wherever I was, it was like, well, I’m 20 miles from the closest train station. I’ve got all my stuff with me. I’m going to have to just pack up my bike anyway and get on my bike and get going. And, and, you know, as it turned out, once I packed up the bikes, then. It stopped raining as much.

I dried off and I was looking across around it more. And then I actually, yeah, I checked into a hotel like, and hung up all my stuff to dry in my room and then went out and got on my bike again and climb some more [00:39:00] Hills and came back and had a good feed. And, you know, it was a lot better by that point.

I think it’s just kind of like sometimes just kind of that like, Recognition that yeah, you might be struggling at the time or it might be tough or you’re suffering, whatever, but it’s the kind of like, well, that’s not gonna, it’s not going to be that state forever. You know, it’s kind of like, well, yeah, this, this is going to pass and, and then it will get better again.

And once I’ve gone through this bit that, yeah, this bit’s a bit crap and I’m not enjoying it. But once I’ve gone through it, I’ll probably look back on it and be like, yeah, I’m glad I did that. And I’m glad that I overcame it. And, yeah. So I think I definitely like play like mind games with myself whenever I’m in, like what I’m finding challenging situations, you know, I’m kind of like that being like, I’ll definitely do the, I’ll tell myself that something’s not as bad as something else that I’ve done before, or like, you know, kind of just be like, yeah, she’s kind of come up with little, like, Oh, if I just like do this a little bit now, then that’s like, I think kind of breaking things down really helps, like bite-sized chunks.

[00:40:00] and I know definitely at the start of project director, I was terrified. Like, I didn’t know how long it was gonna take. I, it was just like, I mean, I’ve kind of, Oh, it’s quite funny. I actually looked at the spreadsheet I made the other day. Like it’s my kind of planning spreadsheet. And I was like, I wasted so much time doing that because I had no idea how long it was going to take.

I didn’t know how I was going to like, condition into it or that was it. She just like looking at places on the map being like, yeah, maybe I’ll camp there. but yeah, and definitely, and at the start it was kind of like, Oh my goodness, 218,000 rows. That’s a lot. And even when I was, you know, 50 Munros in or something like that, I still got 232 to go, like, you know, kind of.

Yeah. Like, it’s just easier to be like, okay, well today I’m just going to go out and I’m going to call on these ones and Oh, this didn’t, I’ll leave my bike here and I’ll go and do this loop. And I’ll like, you know, so I was kind of like break it down into like lots of mini, mini expeditions, I guess, and like many hell days and yeah.

Take you’re taking each day as it comes through [00:41:00] four months track. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, especially if I was going somewhere that there’s like, say there was a pub or something, I was like, Oh, maybe I can get sticky to putting tonight. You know? So you sticky toffee pudding was the big motivator, the big drive to get you through each day, I was actually on a sticky toffee pudding tour of Scotland.

I just had to climb some Hills to justify the calories and the bucket of puddings. Yeah, you just had to pretend like it was something serious, but actually all it really was, was searching for the number one sticky toffee pudding. Is that where we’re at? Whereabouts did you find it? Oh, see, I think I’ve got two, like two strong contenders.

There was one in Glenfinnan, which is where the, like the hyper train goes over the viaduct and there’s a really nice hotel, on lock shale there. They do a really good stick to have per day. but there was also one in Braemar, which was excellent. And I sampled that twice on the trip because I had it once on my way into the kangaroos and once a away, back out as well.

And they were really lovely in the hotel. So I feel like [00:42:00] maybe it’s kind of, because the people were so nice. It may be slightly pips, a sticky toffee pudding. Yeah. I think, I think that gets my number one. Did the atmosphere and experience really? Exactly. Pull it all together. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. And so what’s, what’s your plan next is, have you got another adventure lined up or are you very much sort of playing it by ear?

yeah, I mean, I think I’ve kind of got a few ideas and stuff. But yeah, the moment, I dunno. I mean, I guess like everyone is pretty hard to plan anything right now. Isn’t it? It’s yeah, it’s just kind of trying to, trying to work out what works and I mean, at the moment I’m slightly trying to focus on, okay.

Little bit of money together. Ideally. Well, more trying to pay off my credit card a bit more before I can, back it up again. which, yeah, it’s a bit. I dunno slightly, like always makes me a bit [00:43:00] like them by today, but it’s yeah. Necessary, isn’t it? But, yeah, I mean, I think I quite like, I really enjoy like adventures that don’t necessarily have to cost that much and especially kind of once you’ve, you know, I’ve got a bike and I’ve got like, Most of the kit I need and stuff, but it’s kind of still, you know, obviously there’s logistics involved and and then obviously if you’re away on like for a few months or whatever, that’s a few months that you’re probably not earning otherwise.

so yeah, it’s kind of, I dunno, I’m not really answering your question. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I’ve got, I’ve got ideas. I’ve got things I want to do, but I think at the moment I slightly feel like I’m probably looking at more kind of. Smaller, like maybe like things that are like a week or something and trying to do like, data.

I actually, whenever I came back from the outs this summer, I came back to school and at the end of August and we had to self isolate for two weeks and I [00:44:00] think it took me four days in self isolation before I was like, right. I’ve just Burt, my bike and myself a ticket on the train to Penzance and I’m going to cycle lands into John and growth.

And that was just so, yeah. like gave me something to kind of aim towards for after. Quarantine. and yeah, I do slightly feel like at the moment I’m kind of searching for something to kind of focus on as like a, as a goal or an objective, but perhaps not like a kind of big thing ordinary. I mean, there’s, yeah.

I mean, there’s more Hills in, in the UK that I’d definitely like to climb. but whether or not like, I feel the need to kind of do it in the same way that I did them on rises. Yeah, I did. And I, and I read off today. I keep going back up and Rose as well. It’s actually really nice having climbed them before.

It’s kind of like, I’ve got no kind of like, Oh, I can’t go up that Hill because I’ve done it before or anything. Like, it’s kind of just like, Oh, I can do any of them. And I don’t really mind cause I’ve been up them before, but each Hill day is [00:45:00] different anyway. Cause you know, it’s like the weather is different and the people you’re with is different and yeah.

yeah, I don’t know. Actually, I’ve got like, kind of a list of Hills that I really do. I didn’t enjoy whenever I was doing to it too. That they’re kind of the ones that I’m like waiting for good weather days and then being like, I really want to go back up there and see what it’s actually looks like whenever you’re not in sideways rain all day.

Well, I suppose, being in Atterbury, you’ve got souls be cracks off the seat top up there. And I was at, I was actually up in the pentlands last night, although the fog was really in and I had my head to much with me and, you know, whenever you’re driving and you’re like, eh, you had lights just bounce off the fog.

I was basically like that. So I ended up my, my run turned into a hike. So, that was still nice, even though it’s dark can recei. And if you have too much a withdrawal symptoms of your skiing, you can always go on the dry ski, ski slope there. Yep. Yeah, I haven’t quite resorted to that yet in my eyes.

Cause I lived in Edinburgh for five years. I, I never did either. Yeah, [00:46:00] no, it’s, I mean, to be fair, as far as the dry slope goes, it is, it is the best one there is, but, yeah, it’s not quite so Matt, so, there’s a part of the show which we asked the, get each guests the same question each week. the first being, what’s the one bizarre thing that you crave or miss from home when you’re out doing these adventures?

Well, any kind of challenges or adventures that I do tend to be quite, not that extreme or, you know, not really like, you know, in Scotland, like you can get to a shop like you can kind of, you know, you can get your British, your British snacks and stuff. So, I guess maybe kind of more like home comforts in a sense that, you know, sometimes it’s just so nice to just like put on like a pair of like comfy pajamas.

And actually that was whenever I finished a monitorize, I actually liked specifically went to like marks and Spencer and treated myself to some nice pajamas I got back. So I can just like Lowell around in pajamas all day. yeah. Well, [00:47:00] that’s that’s good. did you have a favorite adventure book growing up?

probably not a favorite, but like, I mean, I read, I read quite a lot in general, read quite a lot of adventure books. my kind of, I think my kind of favorite ones, like if you kind of look back at the books, I’ve read over the years and really enjoyed, definitely. I really enjoy reading about like the South pole and reading about Everest.

I don’t know why I think partly, probably because I’m actually really bad at dealing with the cold. So there’s part of me. That’s like, I just don’t think I could ever do that. Cause I think I’d like if I tried to go to like Antarctica, I’d like, come back with the four fingers last or something. so I think there’s definitely kind of a, an element of kind of like armchair adventure and going on there.

yeah. I think kind of some standout ones that I’ve like enjoyed kind of recently probably, like Chris Bonnington is a scent. Like [00:48:00] that was a rude, you like really enjoyed that, but, like rental funds, like my bad and dangerous to know that was, really good one. yeah, actually, yeah, like, I mean, I dunno, I kind of just had to like, Yeah, read so ready.

I read him and actually that’s a bit different, but, the other day I was reading one about, a man, like back in like the seventies who rode a horse across the whole of the us, which was like a really like different kind of adventure, like went like coast to coast in the U S yeah. So I guess that’s not cold places necessarily, but it was good.

did you have an inspirational figure growing up? Did. I mean, I did. I think there’s like, I, I can find inspiration and a lot of things. yeah. And I think, I mean, yeah, just [00:49:00] kind of, I guess kind of looking at you kind of more like, okay. Like proper explorers of the day, you know, the like Shackleton and Scott, like that era of the Antarctic.

I think that was like amazing and stuff. I mean, I think kind of like nowadays you probably can. It’s really easy to go on, like social media and just like, like look up a hashtag for like adventure or explore or something. And I actually don’t, you can find so much stuff. There’s so much cool stuff that so many people like do.

yeah. I mean, I definitely find sometimes it’s easy to just like, you know, you find yourself like scrolling on Instagram and then being like, Oh wow, that looks awesome. Like, Oh my God, that person did this. That’s so cool. Or like, you know, it’s kind of, yeah. what about favorite quake? Favorite quote or motivational quote.

I mean, this is maybe a bit corny, but one that’s just like just jumped out and I don’t even know who said it, but it’s, I think I like read it on like a shop window at some point, but it’s like, life’s [00:50:00] not about waiting for the storm to pass. It’s about learning to dance in the rain. That was actually one of my sister’s favorite quotes.

Yeah. Yeah, she, she, it’s a very, I think it’s a very good quote because it’s very easy to sort of sit back and just sort of think things will get better. And actually, yeah, it’s, I think it’s a really good one. And that actually, like, even if you take it in a literal sense, sometimes it’s really fun dancing in the rain.

Like, I mean, I definitely find like, you know, when it’s, if it’s braiding and grim outside, sometimes you like don’t want to go outside, but actually once you get out, it’s generally not as bad as you think it’s going to be. And actually you can have quite a nice time. And I think, you know, you can take that literally or metaphorically as well.

Like, you know, it’s just kind of, you can, yeah, like you’ve got to kind of take. Take the positives where you can really being in school and you have so many opportunities.

so people listening are always keen to go traveling and go [00:51:00] on these adventures. What’s the one thing that you would recommend for them to get them started. I think sometimes just kind of like biting the bullet and just like doing something to make it happen. Like, so when I recently cycled lens and John and Rose, I booked my train ticket and then I’ll like, make my plan and worked out how I was going to actually do it.

But I think, you know, once I like. But the train ticket, I’d made a commitment, I’d parted with some money and then it was like, right. It’s happening. I mean, when I did project to it too, I think kind of the key thing was I told, I told some of my friends, in fact, the guys who did the adventure racing whales with, I told them that I was like, thinking about doing this, like, Oh, I might go and do the Monroes and like, be like self-propelled in between them.

And then I think kind of once I told them that was my. Like point that I was like, yeah, I’m doing this. And I know that by telling them, I’m basically making myself accountable and I know that they are going to be like, so how’s the planning going? Are you going to do it? Like, so I think, yeah, sometimes I [00:52:00] guess just kind of like stating that you’re going to do it.

Like, you know, and if you kind of say it publicly or something, then maybe. It makes it happen. And maybe that was why I was being a bit lame with my answer about what’s next. Cause maybe I’m a bit like, Oh no, if I, if I say I’m going to do something, then I’m going to have to go and do it. accounts. Yeah.

I think sometimes it’s kind of, you can get really easily put off by being like, Oh no, I don’t, I don’t have the skills to do that. Or I don’t have the finances to do that with the equipment to do that. And I think so sometimes like maybe just kind of like think, right. Okay. What do you have the skills for?

What do you have the equipment for? Or like, you know, Like you don’t have to go on like an expedition to ever. So like, you know, you can start a lot closer to home and, you know, not have to, you know, I think there’s, there’s certain things that I know I’d love to do, but I’m just like, I don’t even know what I would start about kind of like.

Like yeah, like fundraising for it, or like, you know, and these kind of like bigger like expeditions, you know, I think that’s definitely like the kind of financial side is obviously a massive barrier [00:53:00] that kind of deters people and stuff. I suppose for me, I actually having a bike and just a couple of Penn years makes an enormous difference because you can just shove anything in to pioneers, whether it’s your.

Well, anything, really a sleeping bag pillow, and then you’ve got the freedom just to cycle wherever you want to go. And you can cover so much distance. So, you know, you can get from the South one North of England to the South of England in a week just cycling and you can wild camp, or you can credit card tour, whatever you want, but just the, and that’s not going to cost you an arm or leg.

And actually just doing these little ones. Whatever your budget is, you can easily adapt. Yeah. Sort of no, excuse, not a hundred percent. Exactly. And I think, I think, well, like one of the things I’ve probably learned is that you never really need as much as you think you should need as well. Like, and you know, you kind of like, I’m a big fan of dry [00:54:00] bags.

so if you basically got like a dry set of clothes in a dry bag and like your sleeping bag and stuff in a dry bag, and then whatever you’re wearing, then actually don’t really need much more beyond that. so actually, you know, it’s kind of, and certainly if you’re trying to do like longer distance stuff where you’re.

Like if you’re cycling or if you’re hiking or whatever, the lighter your bag is, the more you’ll appreciate it. Like when I was doing them nose, I sent, I like probably spent quite a lot of money on postage. cause I was like, Nope, don’t need this. Don’t need that. Like posting things home, like kind of every time I got to a post office really.

and Emily, how can people find you? probably Instagram is really the easiest normally at adventure Scotty. yeah. I would say that I’m involved with, the British adventure collective. So that’s at British adventure collective, and also the website is British adventure, collective.com. And we’re trying to like put together some, some trips and stuff to bring [00:55:00] people on, like on adventures.

Going forwards. Is that, yeah, so kind of just like some like weekend, like adventure weekend experiences and stuff that we’re working on at the moment.

EP.008: Chaz Powell

CHAZ POWELL (ADVENTURER & EXPLORER)

After exploring and hiking the globe for over 16 years. Chaz Powell now lives his life as an Explorer, Expedition Leader and Survival Guide. His ongoing project ‘The Wildest Journey’ is all about his wildest journeys by foot along Africa’s wildest rivers with an aim to raise awareness for wildlife conservation and anti-poaching. In 2016/17 Chaz spent 137 days walking over 3000km from source to sea along the Zambezi River. We speak on this episode about that expedition and the struggles and excitement he had in the African Bush.

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Transcript of our Conversation

Chaz Powell – The Wildest Journey

[00:00:00] Chaz Powell – The Wildest Journey: There was one point I was walking towards the national park towards the, as MBZ national park. And there was actually a lot of signs of elephants. I could hear lions at night and things. It was really sort of wildlife based area. And as I was walking down this one track. I heard all this crushing to the side of me.

And there was a big bull elephant charging towards me.

pleasure to have you on the, Show Chaz. W hereabouts are you at the moment? I’m currently in. Warrickshire at canal Marina, my friends, let me stay on his boat here at the moment. So yeah, it’s a little place called Knapton on the grand union canal. Well, I mean, I’ve been following your journey for a number of years and I suppose for people [00:01:00] listening, probably.

Why don’t you tell us a bit about yourself, about what you do? So I’ve been traveling for about 17 years now and, I started by sort of like traveling around the world, doing sort of backpacker type. locations and things like that. And the more I’ve traveled on more extreme expeditions as well. And I guess the last sort of five years I’ve been doing a lot of Africa’s walking and a lot of Africa wildest rivers.

I walk them from the Zambezi river from 2016, 217. And I’ve done another walk along The Gambia river and what’s, what’s Madagascar following Madagascar’s longest river. I’ve just traveled. I’ve done a lot of traveling, a lot of expeditions, a lot of walking, a lot of, exploring and things like that.

And I guess it’s just something that I just keep doing. I lead expeditions as a sort of career as well and teach bushcraft and survival. [00:02:00] And yeah, just, just quite a nomadic person. Really. So how did, what sort of started this all off, because you did your big expedition in 2016, along with the rivers Zambezi, how did that all sort of start about and what, what got you to do this and why?

So does Zambezi? I I’ve been doing like an Overlander Africa in 2012 and. I sort of fell in love with Africa in general, I was doing a lot of, volunteering at wildlife sanctuaries and I was doing love, sort of travel based on wildlife and sort of, wild parts of Africa. And I sort of fell in love with it.

so that’s about eight years ago now. I’ve always done lots of little journeys or was there lots of little exhibitions, lots of walks and lots of traveling. And I always had this passion to do a really wild journey by foot. And, [00:03:00] I’ve been traveling a lot near the Zambizi Reed was a place. I, I just got more and more fond of really more interested in and intrigued with.

And I came up with the idea to. Well, it was a bit of a, it wasn’t really an idea at the time. I just thought to myself, you know, has anyone ever walked the length of the zone? Easy? Is it, is it, is this the Polish river in Africa? Is it, is it doable and more sort of ask people about it? The more people just laughed and said no things.

I just, it just, it just grew in my mind walking the length of the Zambizi, it was like an idea I had and I had a number of ideas for different walks and I was going to do another walk, the length of Madagascar. And I don’t know if you’ve heard of a guy called Ash dykes, but at the same time, I was going to go out and walk on them from Madagascar Ash dykes was also going to be doing it as well.

So I decided I wasn’t going to do it because see it wasn’t the same. If two people are doing it at a similar time, it’s not really going to work. [00:04:00] So I went back to the Zambizi idea and it was still an expedition that really sort of something I really felt like I wanted to do. And then it just, it just happened from that idea really.

And it is a Russian and because it’s the wildest river in Africa, call it the wireless journey. So Paula’s journey that I’d ever taken on in my life. It was the wireless journey that I could think of that I wanted to do. So it just seemed like the thing it’s called the wild river. what about him makes it so wild?

so it’s, it’s classed as the wireless river in Africa. I think it’s partly due to the wildlife. Different wildlife reserves along the river. There’s a lot of wildlife reserves, but also the amount of countries that goes through that are quite hostile in places is quite remote in places. Well, most of it’s remote and there’s [00:05:00] a, there’s about 150 miles section of Rapids called to the lounge.

And it’s quite fast. There’s floodplains, there’s political issues. There’s there’s a lot of, I think, yeah, most of the river. It’s just pretty wild. I don’t know why they’ve clustered as the wireless. I guess it’s partly to do with them is another reason, but I think it’s got a lot of Rapids wild sections in the river, so yeah, I think it’s, it’s, it’s just turned that name.

Maybe it’s through history as well of, of things it’s done as an idea, but it’s definitely a very wild place. Okay. And so were you, were you doing that expedition solo?

Yeah, I did. I, I sat, well, I set out with a guide who I’d managed to get on team initially. he was a local Zambian guy and, once we got out to the river, I think the reality of obviously what we were [00:06:00] going to do was too much for him. And he decided on the first day that he wasn’t going to continue the walk.

So I walked on my own, you know, 137 days. And I think at at least a hundred days, I was on my own. obviously, so wall areas and stuff like that, but people joined me for sections and things, but mostly on my own. Yeah. So in terms of the sort of locals that you encountered, I mean, you went through what, five, six countries from the sort of Congo and gala Mozambique.

DDA. how, how do the different countries sort of compare in terms of, hospitality? well, the only way the country, I got treated well in Zambia. I mean, it starts in Zambia and most of it’s in Zambia borders, it goes to Angola for a small stretch. It goes along [00:07:00] the border of Botswana and Namibia and Zimbabwe.

So I managed to be able to stay on the side of it for, for the most, most part, really in Zambia, I got treated really well. It was quite hostile and I got a few issues, but for the most part, it was really good. And Zambia to me, they treated me really well. But Mozambique was, was a bit of the opposite, really?

That was, I got treated with a lot of suspicion now that they’d obviously been in a war and things and quite, quite a difficult place to walk through. Well, so they always thought you’re a sort of Western spy or spy for the government. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Even in Zambia, I go for a village and they’d obviously be really suspicious about why is this guy in this village and who is this person?

You know? And [00:08:00] they probably the first white person they’ve ever seen and walking through the village, they’re obviously really surprised and really sort of like shocked some of them for some kind of demon or ghost or some kind of reincarnation of David Livingston was probably the only person they actually knew all through.

Gone through that, your history. So it was, it was, they were baffled, but then once, once they sort of got over the fact, I was, obviously not a threat to them and things that they, they, they treated me really well, like a guest and invite me in and in Mozambique they’d just come out of a civil war. So it was more about suspicion and about this guy could potentially be a spy.

This guy could.

To our village. She could be a lot of why is he here? You know, more than welcoming me, things like that. So it was, it was a completely different sort of thing. [00:09:00] And so in terms of walking, cause it’s what, 2,500 or kilometers the river. Yeah, it’s about two and a half thousand. I think with diversions, I probably did about 3000 kilometers or something like that, but it was, it was, yeah, it’s a big old river.

What was the reason for the sort of diversions away? Was it just flood planes or was it flood floodplains? I have to see exac and things and go round. And there was like walking through swamps for a couple of weeks and that’s keep going. Trying to walk around the swampy areas and divert round national parks as well.

Sometimes as a huge national park, I wasn’t allowed to walk around on the roads. people’s properties, you know, farms, you know, swamped. and it was so many things I had to make diversions for. And [00:10:00] it was really, it was really tricky to stay by the rivers. You can expect a river. He’s going to be able to grow and there’s going to be wildlife.

There’s going to be really super difficult areas to walk through. So I found that I had to keep me even the way maybe go up Hills and around mountainous areas. And it was just really tricky next. And, and any issues with the wildlife there. the wildlife, I didn’t really have much issue many issues with it.

I mean, it was, it was a few times I was really sort of on edge cause I’d be walking through areas where there’s a lot of buffaloes and elephants and there was lion prints and leopard prints and things everywhere. And there was one point I was walking towards the national park towards the lowers MBZ national park and.

There was actually a lot of signs of elephants. I could hear lions at night and things [00:11:00] while I faced area. And as I was walking down this one track, I heard all this crashing to the side of me, and there was a big bull elephant charging toward me. And, luckily I had sort of a dip next to me on the other side of the land and I managed to climb down and sort of get away from this bull elephant.

And, stuff like that happens, you know, there was, there was a lot of close encounters, a lot of real, dicey moments, you know, there was lines in there where I was campaign. And then there was some, there was a lot, there was a lot of wildlife sort of potential problems, but I was just really lucky. I think anyone is walking in the Bush, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s difficult if you’re going to come across.

And luckily I didn’t really.

I mean an aggressive bull elephant is a pretty terrifying, I mean, I’ve [00:12:00] been, I’ve been chased by one, but I was in a car. So I suddenly felt a little bit more at ease having the accelerator ready to go, but walking in the Bush or on your own, or with a guide and being chased must be quite something. Yeah.

Yeah. It was. Yeah, I mean, I was told as I was leading up to this part, I shouldn’t be in the area, so I knew I shouldn’t be there. I knew I was potentially going to be in danger, but because you’re trying to walk and you’re trying to get to a safer place. You haven’t got much choice unless you’re going to get a vehicle.

I was quite stubborn that I obviously wanted to get walking. So the more I would put myself into these places, the more risk I was obviously out, and it was pretty scary. And I knew that. That was potentially going to come into homes, but yeah, also quite stubborn turned to keep walking. You know, there was [00:13:00] times when I had guides as well.

It was certain areas. I had to have a guide that was, I wouldn’t have been allowed to walk through, but obviously I was on a bit of a budget as well. So these, these companies and these, these ranges and things, they’re not going to do stuff for free. So.

Was that expedition? self-funded or did you have sponsors with you? no sponsors. Yeah. It was all self. The zombies was all self-funded. I just, it was just something I really wanted to do and I just send it out. Yeah. I wasn’t funded at all. I just saved, saved my money and I just, just went out and did it.

Yeah, that was, I mean, I worked for an exhibition company. Paid for my flights and things. which, well, I worked out there before and I got a flight back with them sort of thing, but there was no, there was no money being paid. There was no sponsorship, no grants, no funding, no, [00:14:00] no anything. And it was just a case of once I had all my stuff on my back and I was obviously on the expedition, I didn’t really need it need anything else I just had was in my bag and just.

Yeah, so you need a pair of feet and a backpack ready to go. It’s overanalyze it. Isn’t it. It’s easy to think you need more than you do. And once you’ve got what you’ve got and don’t really need anything else really softer. So go with the flow. Hope things work out really. I suppose, on some of my expeditions, I have one that Springs to mind is my trip across Kenya is the locals are usually, just couldn’t be more friendly and hospitable.

But in your case, they, you were sort of treated with suspicion. In most cases, it was only one Zambia [00:15:00] said, yeah, It was the biggest part of the biggest part of that expedition was Zambia. I think because I was in such remote areas that they did, they didn’t see anybody else, you know, they didn’t have these visitors coming into the village.

And I think then places that was, that was, you know, right there was suspicion. Rightly so because of. They wouldn’t, you wouldn’t expect this person to be walking through the, of tourist or whatever it is. We have a backpack walking through a village and they’d obviously want to know why you’re here. What are you doing?

And I don’t know if it was, it wasn’t necessarily hostile. It was just like real confusion for them. And they might have been, they were a bit scared that, you know, they might be in danger, maybe. I don’t know, but it was. You know, for the most part in touristy areas and whatever else I’d be treated amazingly, you know, the closer I got to sort of civilizations I’d be treated very well and there [00:16:00] wasn’t any issues, but Mozambique, I think it’s a different sort of place, you know, there is pop probably, I always imagined big, really friendly, but I couldn’t walk anywhere without getting harassed.

Really. The police would stop, man. I had to literally take my bag up. MTFE now asked me for my passport, asked me for money and, I didn’t, you know, I really struggled in Mozambique. I literally sat in the police station for hours and they’d be questioning me and, and that, and it all boiled down to, they just, they were just doing this and they, they wanted, they wanted money in order to let me just walk or go wherever, you know, there, there, obviously there was good people, definitely was good people, but.

I think they just, they’ve just been through a hard time. They’ve been through difficult times and they, that was how they lived, you know, they, they, they, yeah, I dunno. It was, it was, it’s a tricky one. It’s a [00:17:00] difficult one to talk about because these things obviously really sort of in your face when you’re there.

And, you know, I got, I got actually chucked in a room and hold for three days in one village and. I got Tracy to a stage where I was trying to obviously the good person all the time and treat them well. And it was just, I was just real suspicion and real sort of, yeah, we all sort of hostility in, in, in some of the areas.

And I think about why is it happening? And. Focus on the fact that they have been through a difficult time. And I shouldn’t really be walking through the village. I am classed as being obviously, maybe a fret to their village. They don’t know who I am. They don’t know why I’m there. They can’t speak the same language as me.

They can’t understand why I’d be there to sort of put myself into these modes every time that I was getting hot [00:18:00] hostility to send, obviously to them, sort of. Yeah. Justify why, why I was getting treated maybe the way I was just sort of be patient with them and get through them times. And then, you know, the good times when I was getting treated really, really well, obviously magnified because of the difficult times I’ve had in different areas and things like that.

If that was sort of motivated you to sort of keep going when you had these hard, hard times. Yeah, I think you get to the stage where you put yourself through real difficult moments, and then you do have an incentive to sort of then say, right, I’m going to reach this place tomorrow. And if I just keep putting off in a really nice area where I can get some food or I can relax and I can not compete around sort of, you know, maybe a, a nicer environment and potential.

Yeah. There was those incentives. One of the strange things that. Even myself, [00:19:00] myself, Tim, and I’m on the boat with he, he walked The Gambia river with me. So he’s also an Explorer type of person as well. But we, we always used to give ourselves an incentives of getting into a place where, how to shop, you know, just to, just to shop.

And then if they had any kind of culture drinks, that would be our, that would be our biggest. That was strangely our biggest incentive, a cold drink, anywhere that had a fridge in any way that. Because we, we literally just drink hot river water the whole time. It was just river water every day, you know, and if we saw a shop renew, there might be a shop in a village or a little town that we’d be like, right.

There’s a shop two days time, we’re going to beat your shop. There’s going to be a fridge. We’re going to get, you know, copious amounts of cold drinks. And that happened quite a few times. It seems like a really bizarre reason to have an incentive, but it became something that was so important, [00:20:00] which I guess if you look at the Western world, who’s got all these material objects that we focus on, that might’ve been part of it, you know, I might be thinking, well, I can have a Coca Cola or whatever it is, but it was just, it was just very bizarre.

I think I’m on one of our last podcast, I was sort of talking about a trip I did. And there was a time where in 2012, when I was cycling, I ended up staying in, sleeping in the loos. And it was purely because it had electricity and a basin. And for like four weeks, I’d been sort of camping and a shirt and everything, and say the idea of having fresh running water and a light.

was, was great for me, made such a huge difference. The idea of just having a basin and electricity was the one, such a small joy to have. But, and I suppose for [00:21:00] you, you know, when you, going through 40 degree heat walking day after day 20 miles, the sort of, idea of having a cold. Okay. Kayla or spray or water was sort of motivation to sort of keep you going?

Yeah, I mean, there was obviously bigger incentives that we reached at a main town than we know potentially we’ve got a little hotel or there is vestments and stuff like that, but we knew that, you know, when, when you’re on major X expeditions in really remote areas that. Can you pinpoint these little towns that might have a fridge or, and there might just be one fridge in the village and you it’s like a glorious moment.

You see this fridge open and all these drinks in front of you. And you’re like, wow. She says, it seems really petty, doesn’t it? And it seems a bit daft, but yeah, there was obviously like reaching major towns. You’d have a hotel and that would be like something else, you know, incredible. [00:22:00] but yeah, th th the silly little things that we take for granted, I mean, that’s where it does as well.

It teaches me, and it teaches anybody, you know, that we were literally living with nothing. I mean, anything that we do have, you know, like simple things that we do have in this world, we’ve got so many things that we have in this world. We don’t even think about when you’re in Africa. There’s none of that.

And if you see any kind of little sign of one of these luxuries, Then it it’s triggered something like, wow. You know, but then when you get home, you realize that you’ve actually got more than you ever need, you know, to, to live and be comfortable. And we are just so spoiled here reminded about what we were saying before about the visions and remind them of elephant from every angle.

And we’re just such a tall nation, but we’re also so gradient. There’s no reason to be moaning about every little thing. I’m going off on one now, but it’s such a, [00:23:00] I think sort of the more you travel, the more you really appreciate where you live, the sort of luxuries that you have. And so when you sometimes hear someone complaining about something, just so minor, you know, like why did the Amazon parcel not come today and why I came here?

Sort of like the things that just. Just nothing in comparison to the outside. And as you say, when you are, when you are going on these trips and, you know, walking for 2,500 miles through war torn countries, the idea of coming back and someone complained about something so minor, it’s quite hard to sometimes take it drives me mad.

Yeah, it’s just, everyone does it. We all do it. And I think the more comfortable you, yeah, the more you sort of, you just [00:24:00] complain about things and you get difficult about things. And I think you get difficult, but if you put yourself in a difficult, really difficult situation, when you come out of that situation and you’re going to appreciate things a lot more, when you got to stop moaning about things a lot more, and you’re going to just.

And I guess I’m just, it’s something that we really have lost touch with Western worlds is appreciating things and just being grateful for what we’ve got because no one really, no one really does focus on that. They focus on the negatives around that situation instead of saying, right, but we’ve got this.

What was the sort of mind? Sorry. Oops. What was this sort of mindset that you had for this sort of trip? Because too, I think people listening, I think sometimes one can’t really comprehend when, [00:25:00] as you say, we talk about having the sort of luxuries in the Western world to suddenly going off and doing a 2000 Trek cross war torn countries or.

Months and months on end, what was the sort of thinking and mindset behind that? And what’s sort of kept you going each day. So I think to do these trips, you have to have a certain thing in the back of your mind that sort of pushes you because as you say, when you’re thrown into a village and held there for three days, most people would be like, I’ve had enough of this.

This is. This is too much, but what was in the back of your mind? Which sort of said, no, I’ve got to keep going. I think, you know, partly you keep going because you want to get out of that difficult situation you’re in, you know, mentally, because you’re in a, if it’s a difficult situation, you’re obviously like inside your [00:26:00] head, you’re like, this is really difficult.

I need to get out of it. But then. So your incentive itself to get out of that situation. But I think to begin with, if you’re going to go out and do expeditions, you need to be able to be sure that you can handle them situations or, or want to handle them situations. I think, cause it’s about, I find, I think I’m mentally very, very strong, you know, I’m in a difficult situation.

I can look at ways to get out of here. And I, I also think to myself that, you know, this is not. A permanent situation.

I’m going to come out the other side and I’m going to get to an area where it’s going to be a completely different situation. And I find that expeditions are, you know, for the most part they’re difficult, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s 50 50, maybe. Euphoric moments and difficult moments, whether or not you’re walking in really hot weather, getting potential threats, different areas, and getting hostility, or you’re getting tired, [00:27:00] exhausted, or whatever it is.

And then you’ve got these euphoric moments where you’re camping out in wonderful places. You’ve got the wildlife, you’ve got humble people that are treating you really, really well. So there’s a combination of both. And I think you just mentally need to understand that. You’re going to put yourself and appreciate it because if you don’t, then you’re not going to be able to handle it, which is why I think, I dunno.

I mean, it’s, it’s also a learning thing. You know, the more you travel, the, a comfort zone, you’re going to stretch that comfort zone. You’re going to want to do different things. You’re going to want to, push yourself even further and you’re going to get more comfortable with that situation. So I think it’s partly that, you know, some people will be like, Oh, I don’t feel comfortable, but maybe if they did a few smaller walks or they did a little check out first and did a, did Iraqi of the area and figured out if they actually feel comfortable with them, will they get used to them things more.

They’re gonna [00:28:00] be able to put themselves through them situations if you know what I mean. And I find that yeah, experience does help, but sometimes it’s just a case of. Getting out there learning from it, you know, get your stuff. And if you, if you like it, you like it. If you don’t, you’re gonna come back and you’re gonna learn a lesson about yourself or whatever.

Yeah. Very true. I mean, would you, would you do it again or are you very much, I’ve done that. I’ve because you moved on to, sort of Gambia, Ambien, Gambia river, and a few others. Is the idea is just slightly to sort of it’s about exploring the different rivers rather than that particular area. Yeah. I think it’s about the project became walking Africa as well as rivers in this battle against wildlife crimes.

It was about going through different areas, walking through different, along different rivers, doing obviously [00:29:00] iconic expeditions that. People rarely go to these areas. So it’s about exploration and discovery and about doing something unique, different myself, but also it’s about highlighting certain problems that are happening with wildlife and the loss of wildlife.

So it’s about, I don’t know, I just, for myself, I just love exploring and I want to go to different areas where I’ve never been, or not many people have been. I wanted to sort of go and see these. These places I’ve never been a fan of following the usual sort of trials that people go to. I mean, I do, I do a lot of training and do a lot of walks and stuff.

But when I think for my own personal big expeditions, I want to go off the beaten track and I want to go and explore and have that sense of doing something different and wild and extreme. And I think all of my expeditions on the wireless journey, I’ve been about trying to tick them boxes, but zombies is obsolete.

[00:30:00] Insane, you know, walk down the walk is a walk that no one had ever done before. And, we set out to do it, and there was huge obstacles in the way, like walking through giant lion parks and things like that. And there was, there was a lot of obstacles and I think it’s more about going and doing different journeys that are interesting and unique to myself.

And, you know, I think others obviously appreciate the fact that I’m putting myself in really wall situations and I’m also. I’m showing people, places that not many people go to, you know, and I think while I’ve companies and different companies and people and organizations are interested in seeing things that people don’t see, you know, and places that people don’t go to.

And, I think that’s more of the draw for me is just, just doing interesting journeys that, that haven’t been done or, or just, difficult to do. And I think the more I’ve done things, like I said about the comfort zone, the [00:31:00] more I feel I need to keep doing extreme things that have been not been done before, or just, or just interesting, interesting expeditions in my mind.

And your experience, with the wildlife in Africa, are you hopeful or pessimistic about the future? That’s a good question. You know, I think it depends on the different countries and the different, laws and legislations that they have to do with wildlife. Oh yeah. I mean, it’s definitely got to do the different laws and legislations and things, and I think, but it’s about, I think it’s hard to see.

It’s hard to see how things are, you know, I think obviously the population grows. Areas get smaller, the all ice being poached and hunted and, [00:32:00] and it’s, it’s really difficult from that side. But then you see all these organizations and these projects that are happening and people are slowly sort of protecting reserves and making sure that they’re not going to be encroached upon by populations and things.

But then also, you know, you’ve got elephants and things that migrate different animals migrate, and they’re going into. Conflict with humans. And there’s a lot of problems. And I think that I don’t want to obviously speak, you know, yourself probably, but a lot of Africa is not straightforward with saying, you know, we need this to happen.

This is a problem. They’ll be like, well, we’ve got other priorities and it can be quite corrupt as well. You know? And I don’t want to name any sort of organizations, but there was a lot of corruption in Africa and. There’s a lot of difficulties with, with initiating any kind of protection or any kind of fast system.

And I think that it’s, it’s, I’m [00:33:00] optimistic, always optimistic, but then at the same time, I can see areas that are really difficult to concentrate on with wildlife. And, you know, there’s so many people outside sources that always go into Africa. Rip the place to pieces, you know, horrible, horrible way of saying it, but it’s not, it’s not necessarily the African people than the African governments and organizations that are the problems.

Sometimes there’s outside influence is there’s the forest station, different sources. There’s, you know, there’s poaching from different sources, then there’s just wildlife, you know, massacres. And it’s just this, this. Is horrendous things happening, but there’s also amazing things happening. I think it’s one of the things that needs to constantly be assessed that needs to be more education for local people.

There needs to be, less, outside interference with things and sort of like [00:34:00] natural resources and things. You know, the obstacle, the trees and the rivers things need protecting it’s. Once again, it sits. It’s difficult. Africa’s a difficult places as you probably know yourself, but it’s, there’s a lot of hope in Africa and there’s a lot of good people.

Hopefully it will. I think, compared to 10 years ago where I think there was very, I wouldn’t say little hope, but I think now. It’s been talked about a lot more and people are starting to take action. I, because when I was out in Kenya in 2018, I was in the North, a mass Amora Conservancy and they have a great sort of system whereby I think 10, 15, 20 years ago or something the government gave each.

Martha family 50 acres. And what they did was then they put barriers up and fences. [00:35:00] So the wildlife couldn’t move around and then they sort of pitched together and decided, well, you know how, because the mass people love the cattle and they love, and also it used to be tradition to be a man. You had to go and kill a lion, but now that’s changed and they see.

align being alive. It’s more valuable to them than alive and being dead. So they’ve completely changed the culture in that respect to preserve, you know, the probably delicate ecosystem. And, you know, when we were, when I was there in the Maasai, Mara was just alive with, it was just full of game. And I think in other countries that sort of system could but could be implemented, but again, it needs to benefit the local people.

And a lot of the time, you know, elephants [00:36:00] when they’re killed, it’s not sometimes because of patron it’s because they’ve encroached on farms, land, farmers, land, and, you know, the farmer has to decide whether he. Loses his entire crop to the elephant or kills the elephant. And unless you say unless there’s compensation or there’s something, I think it’s a very difficult yeah.

For them. Yeah. Yeah. There’s definitely there’s. There’s like you say about this there’s these real difficult issues that we don’t always look out like the land and the conflict between them. But then yes, there is compared to 10 years ago, maybe there’s more organizations, more projects, more things focused on helping and protecting and working together with the wildlife.

But, it’s really difficult process and [00:37:00] changes all the time, changes all the time, the systems and the ways of doing things. But yeah, I dunno.

Yeah, I, I think, I think it’s changed from where it was 10, 15 years ago. I think now there is more emphasis on preserving wildlife in Africa. And I think sometimes you got to look at the good as well as the bad. Yeah, definitely. I think Madagascar was a place that really opened my eyes because. I was, you know, I go through these places and I obviously concentrate on the good side of it.

What’s happening in good places. And Madagascar, you know, there was the reserves which, which are protected and well maintained, and they’re really, really good. But then you go into the bulk of Madagascar, the core of it, and the place has [00:38:00] been decimated. You know, there’s trees are just gone. land is just on fire and.

It, it’s hard to like, you know, saying anything positive about some of these parts that, you know, Madagascar was a very lawless country in the central area of it. And there’s not much known about that central area of Madagascar and places being ripped to pieces. You know, the fact that they need the trees for charcoal and, building and whatever else.

So. It’s, it’s difficult, you know? Cause you see the land getting smaller and smaller and smaller and people needing more and more and more. And yes, I mean, some countries, there is a real emphasis on projects and protecting and whatnot, but some countries I’m seeing the opposite. It’s quite worrying really?

[00:39:00] Yeah. Because, is it, the rain forest is in Madagascar. I remember reading about their sort of cuts a road, right through the sort of center of the rain forest or a highway or something, which is completely cut open. And it’s sort of a slippery slope because then you slowly build out and more and more of the land gets sort of, as you say, turned into Choco.

People to cook people to keep warm slash and burn slash and burn is also a big problem. You know, the whole samphire fire to the London, you know, this, the soil and the fertile ground is just disappearing. They can’t grow crops and they can’t keep maintaining their land because it’s just dying out pretty quick.

Yeah. [00:40:00] yeah. so, I mean, what’s your, what’s your next trip then? What are you planning for the future? Yeah, so the next year was supposed to be happening. Now. I was supposed to be out there in August walk until about November, December, and I was going to be walking the orange river, Southern Africa was going to be walking across Africa.

So crossing Africa itself in Namibia, and boss, and South Africa, and those going to be walking the length of the orange river, which is about 1,400 miles along the river. And the walk itself would have been obviously a couple of thousand miles with the crossing of Africa. so that is still something I want to do.

So something that I’ve got on the cards, but it’s difficult, obviously say it’s going to happen this time. That time at the moment is something that I’m saying is my next expedition. But at the same [00:41:00] time, I’m just, I’m just waiting and seeing what happens with the world. The UK, I’ve been walking a lot of stuff here as well.

I’ve walked. Most of the UK is rivers. A lot of the big rivers here in the UK and I’m doing different national park crossings as well. And I’m going to be running quite a few of them next year, but, you know, organizing a major expedition at the moment is just something that is quite difficult. I think in a different country, I thought about doing many things and I even think about just getting my bag and just walking and stopping.

Right. strictly.

Sorry, wait until you get to a border and they’re like, no, no, no one quarantine two weeks. Well, that’s it. Isn’t it. Yeah, you can’t, you can’t even go into another country about that being some kind of rules. You got to go and quality and then you’ve got a test [00:42:00] and I think it’s just becoming more and more ridiculous, to be honest.

Wow. but at the same time, if the virus is as bad as what some people say then, and then what can you say about it? What can you do? I mean, I, I don’t fully believe, it’s bad as what they say, but that’s what it is. Yeah. I’m just going to check the camera and then, hang on one sec. Your camera’s still going.

this is the part of the show where we ask the same five questions to each guest that comes on each week, which is like the first bit, the first being. What’s the one bizarre thing that you crave or miss when you’re away. Yeah.

[00:43:00] so I guess you just spit out to just to relax really, because when I want to expedition, I must just stops in the zone of just it’s quite intense. You know, I’m just obviously doing this extreme expedition and just being able to just go somewhere and shut myself off and just relax and sort of wind down and things like that.

I find really difficult. One I’m on an expedition. There’s obviously things. Yeah. I miss that, you know, material, both basic things. Like food’s obviously a massive thing. It was mess, but I dunno, it’s a difficult question, I guess, just to have what, like one, one thing, but yeah, there’s, there’s quite a bit, I think.

Yeah, probably just the element of just being able to just relax. We’ve had a Jaffa cakes, coffee pizza.

Yeah, I think the tell you also that I don’t miss too much. I think food is always going to be a thing. Cause you’re going to be [00:44:00] hungry. You’re going to be eating rations and things like that. And there’s always certain foods I miss like cheesecake. I like cheesecake. So maybe that’s probably a good answer for that sort of thing, but I don’t know.

Really, it’s tough to pick one particular thing that I miss. Yeah, sure, sure. Okay. what is your favorite adventure book then? Your book

I’ve read quite a few. I think the one that inspired me is, and years ago was into the wild. So when I was a film, which was, I know it was a. Yeah, quite a well documented book and film, but into the wild, I read that probably a good 15, 20 years ago. And that was something that inspired me to just, just travel and feel like I was being free and without restrictions [00:45:00] and stuff like that.

So I know there’s a, there’s a lot of travel books. I think that one stands out more than the others. Okay. did you have like an inspirational figure growing up? I didn’t, well, you know, I didn’t have any sort of family members that were inspirational, travel based theme, you know, I didn’t really have anyone around me, which was inspiring me to actually travel and do expeditions.

I think it was, yeah, it was something that was just inside me. It’s actually want to travel, I guess. And just explore. Yeah. I think maybe things like watching David Attenborough documentaries probably would have been my closest form of being inspired to actually the conservation and the wildlife type thing.

I think probably, yeah, maybe I’ll say David, that umbrella broccoli wasn’t around me. I’ll just say he was someone that was [00:46:00] there that I looked up to maybe, and sort of admire as far as, what, what I’d like to do in my own life, you know? Nice. and what about a sort of favorite quote or motivational quote?

I’m not really a fan of Christ,

I think a lot before. just, you know, the more, the last year have the richer you are, is that, is that a quote that sort of, that sort of lifestyle, you know, as far as minimalizing. What you have as, as personal objects, but then it makes you rich too, as far as being humble and just being more, appreciative of things.

And there maybe the, the less you have more rich you are, I’m trying to sort of think it’s the, I [00:47:00] think if the dialogue was proverb, which is the sort of paradox of choice, well, I, I can’t remember the quote exactly, but it’s this sort of idea of the more you have, the more worries you have. And, it’s a pretty long one, which I can’t, recite by heart, unfortunately, but it’s a, I think it goes along the same sort of lines is what your guess, you know, I can never fully remember how they go.

You know, I’ll probably have my own little versions of them and stuff like that. But I think just, I like a lot of the crutch, you know, about everything’s equal and not sort of thing about calmer. And I do believe in a lot of whatever you’re giving out is going to come back to you and things like that.

And I think that it’s really important just to, like we said before about, remember, I appreciate what you’ve got and, you know, and. Material objects [00:48:00] and things aren’t necessarily as important as we make them to be. So that side of things is something that I’ve always sort of followed really. people listening are always keen to travel and go on adventures.

What’s the one thing that you would recommend them to get too? I mean, if they’re in the UK, there’s so many UK based trails that are just incredible. We’ve got. Know, hundreds of different trials in the UK that we can get out more. But I think, you know, if they want to get out and do adventures, depending on what they want to do, if they want to go hiking, like I do, then I’ll just say, maybe go and do a couple of day track somewhere in the UK and just get used to while camping and being adventurous and seeing if you enjoy it for you, obviously commit to doing six months down, I’m busy or whatever it is, but maybe just yeah.

Tackle the West Highland way or Hadrian’s wall or one of the UK. Trials and, and, and do that. And, and even like Europe, you know, if you want to go a [00:49:00] bit further afield, there’s so many long distance trails and different islands with different trails, just incredible. And having ease yourself in, I think it was a case of like your comfort zone, just, just slowly stretch it out.

And until you know exactly that you want to keep doing it and you want to do more extreme things. Really. So I think just the UK has got an incredible network. Yeah. Different trials and also incredible community of people that actually inspire others, you know, maybe get involved with community of adventure, like people and, you know, sort of get out and do stuff with them or get out and learn things and inspire.

And yeah, just, just, just, just take a step and just get out and do something.

and so what are you doing now and how can people find you?

so at the moment [00:50:00] I’m in lockdown and I I’m living in my van, I’m slowly sort of trying to plan expeditions for next year and things like that, but I will be planning a load of expeditions in the UK next year. So those are little mini expeditions that I, I want people to come and get involved with as well.

So. If anyone wants to get involved with them, please get in touch. the wireless journey is my social media platform. The name of the project, obviously walking Africa’s rivers, typing the wireless journey on any social media platform and you should find me. And then, the wireless journey.com is my website, all of my expedition based things on that.

All of my training, weekends and expeditions and. My talks, my yeah. Different, different journeys. I’ve done. I’ve put them all on the website. So check out the wireless journey.com. That’s the website. Amazing. Well, Charles, thank you so much for coming on today [00:51:00] and I look forward to following your adventures next year when they all kick-off.

Thank you very much for having me on John. It’s been a pleasure mate.

EP.007: Anna Blackwell

ANNA BLACKWELL (ADVENTURER & PHOTOGRAPHER)

Anna Blackwell is an adventurer, writer, photographer and speaker with a love of the outdoors and pushing her limits. On this weeks episode, we chat about how adventure builds character and why getting outside and out of your comfort zone is important. This has led Anna to pursue numerous adventures, including trekking 1,000km across Northern Scandinavia by herself, kayaking across Europe, spending five weeks trekking across the wilderness of Arctic Sweden alone, walking 1,000 miles solo across France and Spain, and even hitch-hiking to Morocco.

 

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Transcript of our Conversation

Interview with Anna Blackwell

Interview with Anna Blackwell: [00:00:00] I knew that I wouldn’t make it back to the village. So I faced a really tricky decision, but ended up having to activate the SOS on my Garmin, on my sort of GPS device. And, yeah, got rescued by a helicopter, quite dramatic. And I really dont like being the one that causes a scene and makes a fuss.

I think that probably the best thing to do is introduce yourself and tell us who you are and where you’re from. Yeah, sure. So my name is Anna Blackwell. I am an adventurer writer, speaker, photographer, and I also, just finished studying a master’s in environment in human health. [00:01:00] managed to work my, passion for adventure into that as well in my thesis, which is more about how adventure shapes, resilience, which is really interesting.

We were speaking the other day about resilience. And I was saying that in terms of doing these trips, which you know, where you have to endure. Some horrendous, horrendous situations, you know, and people listening would be like, why would you put yourself through it? I think it builds character and it builds resilience to actually, when something does happen, that is completely out of your control.

You adapt far better than otherwise if you were not prepared for it. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it’s, it’s not any of the adapting, but it’s actually how you deal with challenged or the aftermath of challenge as well. so it’s not just about being able to kind of successfully deal with that challenges about being able to grow through it as well as in sort of gain positives from [00:02:00] it, whether that kind of more confidence or skills to deal with other challenges in the future.

Yeah, resilience is key and adventure is a brilliant way to build your resilience. Yeah, no. and so how did, how did you get into the sort of adventures? How did it all start? So I think really, I, I guess I trace it back to my gap year, so I was about 18, I think. and I ended up going out to central America with a gap year company.

And part of what I was doing, that was a couple of weeks of trekking in Costa Rica. And at this point, I’d never done any sort of really physical things. Cause I’d done bronze. Duke of Edinburgh award at school? And I had hated it. It got us the end of it. It says I was never trekking and camping ever again.

And yet I then found myself trekking camping for three weeks in mountains and jungles and along beaches. and I got to the end of that trip and I so distinctly remember everyone else [00:03:00] in the group sort of crying tears relief that this horrendous ordeal was over that they didn’t have to put their boots and their ruck sack on the next day.

And I just have to take myself away. It’s the corner and crying. I was so heartbreaking that this adventure was over. So I sort of realized then that I. I quite enjoy doing things that push my boundaries a little bit, where I was kind of uncomfortable and things sort of snowballed from there. So I then went off and started university and in my Easter and summer holidays, I ended up going off on a number of trips from hitchhiking to Morocco, with some uni mates, walking the community to Santiago 500 mile, 800 km, to pilgrimage really across the state.

and the more things I did, the more I loved it and enjoyed it and felt like there was something, something that I wanted to really pursue and just spend more and more time doing. So, is that how you came up with the idea for the kayak across the, across the continent? [00:04:00] So kayaking the continent. I can’t actually take any claim and the responsibility for the idea behind that.

And it’s quite a funny story. I, so this was after I finished university is 2017. I was working at a law firm. And I remember it as a slightly miserable or tunnel October evening. And I was on a website called explorers connect, which is a sort of expedition Teammate finding platform, basically. and I was, I wasn’t looking for anything in particular, but this ad that cropped up and there was a girl who was looking for someone to kayak across Europe with her.

And there were just a couple of things about the sort of advert that that’s she posted that has really captured my attention and it sounded like such a cool trip. So without thinking about it, and so what, I just sent her an email, it was like, Hey, you can’t find anyone I’m really interested in doing. And I heard back from her the following evening, she had posted that [00:05:00] advert three months before.

And during that time she’d had over 80 women from around the world replying to it. Cause she was after female in particular. and she had narrowed it down to two women who she was going to confirm which one it was the following day. She was like, send me your info send me a bit about yourself, your experience and all that.

And I’ll consider you. So you’re applying to that, the sorts of things that I’ve been up to eat. And that was at the time I was based in Oxford and that sort of thing. and it then transferred them and actually gone to the same school five years below me at secondary school in Oxford and she still lived a couple of miles away from me.

whereas the two other women, she considering her in like Scotland and Australia or something crazy like that. so we had a chat on the phone and just hit it off just like that. Neither of us looks back on that phone call it was like we were pretty committed to kayaking across Europe together. And we did that.

How long did that take? It was five months of actual kayaking.

[00:06:00] And do had you kayaked much before that? I mean, I kayaks on holidays and for fun and sort of recreation thing, never taking a particularly seriously. I think the longest I had been in a kayak was probably couple of hours and they’d like a half day me around the coast in Cornwall things like that. And kind of once we decided to actually do this trip.

And what was the, sort of, I mean, you said you guys hit it off from the start where there were a few sort of, moments along the way or. Is why you sort of capsize or she pushed you out of the Kayak or anything like that. They’ve tempted to try and push each other out at times. and so many people had warned us going into the, so we were in a tandem kayak, a double kayak and people.

I refer to it as the divorce maker, the relationship breaker. As I say, if you go, if you try this trip you wont be speaking by the end of it, you’re going to hate each other. but that just wasn’t the case for us. Like [00:07:00] we, it brought us so much closer together and we were sharing a tent for about two months as well.

so we were sharing a tent, quite a small tent, Sharing a kayak. We were completely inseparable, but we just. We could pick up on everything about each other. So like, we could get a sense if I was feeling a bit grouchy or as hungry or particularly tired, or just a bit annoyed with the world, Kate kind of knew just to let me have my quiet time or she’d like your snack bar.

and it was the same that you just, yeah, we, we learned to be very, very good together. and kind of each other are sisters now. And it’s quite a lot of together on that trip and it bought us safely and doing that sort of trip because you’re following the sort of coast line, what were the sort of highlights of it?

So we, Oh my gosh. So many highlights. having two capital cities to start with, to, we started in London. And had a couple of days, paddling down [00:08:00] thames around the Kent coast and across the channel to France. So that first stretch was coastal and it was quite cool, quite scary at times, sort of paddling around the cliff and low cloud poor visibility.

that was, another learning curve for us. but getting to see London and Budapest places like that from the river. It was really, really incredible. that’s not the perspective that most people get to see. but I actually think probably the best bits of it with the people that we met along the way.

in every single country that we went through the locals, that we met were so kind and so welcoming. And we were shown such generosity, a lot of confusion as well. People were always incredibly baffled by these two girls and a massive kayak and just sort of rocking up and say, they’d come from London, right?

Generally. Yeah, isn’t that weird, [00:09:00] confusing. But once people realize you’re serious, they just wanted to do it to help us. That was incredibly special. And then after that you came back, I mean, how old were you when you did that trip? I was, Ooh, that’s a good question. It’s 2018.

Okay. So you’d finished uni and you were, you were in law and then you decided, right. I want to go out. And then from that, did that sort of snowball your ambition to sort of do this more and more and try and find a way of making it work? Yeah, I think that ambition had already been there even when I was still at university, I kind of deep down, knew that I wanted to try and meet the career to adventure.

But at that point, I didn’t know anyone [00:10:00] in the adventure industry. I didn’t know anyone who did this sort of thing. And everyone around me was saying is that is completely unrealistic. It’s not a viable career option. so after graduating, I worked 18 months. which was,

is it a law firm for 18 months? And during that time, and often did do some other trips, between graduating and starting at the law firm. Spent five weeks trekking across, past Arctic Sweden by myself, which was absolutely fantastic. and did things like traveled to Morocco and went to Arctic Norway.

but really I knew that I wasn’t in an office job, an office nine to five long term, that was just a stint to get it out to my parents systems. [00:11:00] I think there’s a lot of that. You know, I think it’s very sort of similar case. you know, I think I was in 2017. I, I sort of knew I, I wanted to do this. but of course it’s quite difficult to figure it out in terms of when people are, Oh, well, how are you going to get you’ll monthly income?

How are you going to pay rent? How are you going to do that? You sort of, haven’t got a clue, but you sort of know deep down that. That’s the sort of path and you just sort of go with it and work it out later. Yeah. How you sort of felt. Yeah, I knew the kayaking trip definitely propelled me into that career.

More. I’d been, I’d gone part part-time at the law firm. So I was doing. It’s a lot of time off its job and part-time was already starting to do a little bit of public speaking and writing. so I’d started to figure out [00:12:00] where these. Potential forms of income were coming from, and it’s sort of done a little bit of work with brands and got a few sponsors, a few trips sponsors and sort of gear, things like that.

So I knew that there were these opportunities. I would say it was a aware that is going to be a real hard slog to create enough opportunities to sustain myself each month, but yeah, the kayaking trip coming back from that, I didn’t have to work too hard for these opportunities for a year and a half, I think, because the trip, you might hope high-profile

and, it was a world first and it was very long and exciting trip. it’s not sort of naturally lent itself to a lot of public speaking and writing. but she has enabled me to sort of.

And then you quit the law firm. I did. Yeah. I quit that before I went off kayaking. my boss very [00:13:00] kindly offered to hold the job until I came back and we still on fantastic times. But I would be surprised if I ever ended up in a nine to five in an office again.

So after that you had a sort of year and a half doing public speaking, sort of talking about it, that sort of drive the next project that you did. It certainly gave me the heads, basically thinking about what I wanted to do next. One of the things the kayaking trip was absolutely fantastic. And I sort of mentioned that the people that we got to meet along the way and that hospitality that we received a part of me was still really craving this kind of remoteness of the trek that I had done previously in Arctic Sweden.

and so as I was starting to think about what I wanted to do next, decided that I wanted to go [00:14:00] somewhere away from people. dispite been quite a socialable person. I do love being by myself and I really, really enjoy solo expeditions . Absolutely no offense to keep my hiking partner, fantastic kayaking partner, ideals.

They really solo that. so I, yeah, and sort of starting to think about what I wanted to do and decided that a three month solo trek across Arctic Northern Scandinavia was the next one for me. And that was the three month. Yeah. So I started in, it’s called the Trimix or is it it’s where Finland, Sweden and Norway meets.

And I sort of followed the mountains on the Swedish Norwegian border. so I was kind of hopping between countries, but it was mainly, mainly in Sweden. All right, great. And was that winter or summer? I mean, [00:15:00] did you get the chance to see the Northern light? That one was summer. So I didn’t see the Northern lights on that trip, but I did have the midnight sun, which is quite confusing when you’re in a tent trying to sleep and it’s like daylight.

Wow. That’s unreal. And, and so you sort of, because I sort of saw, you’ve been doing sort of mini adventures as well. These sort of micro adventures where you go away for the weekend. I’m doing that. Is that quite, do you sort of plan to do these each weekend or you sort of once a month, you plan a trip and you go for it.

It’s not even as sort of preplanned is that I tend to be better sense that I’ve been. In one place for too long, or I haven’t had my adventure fix and I sort of crave a night under top or just under the stars, in fact, or a change of scene for the [00:16:00] last say for a year I’d been living in Cornwall, which is fantastic.

but it’s the longest I have. Stayed put stayed at home, in years and years and years, which is interesting, I’ve loved it, but I have felt. I need so get my adventure fix. So things like going for a night and Vivian by the coast, mean even just a couple of days away being a fantastic way to get that little taste of adventure and change scenes of yeah, definitely.

Yeah. well I mentioned that’s what locked down really does for you. It makes you stay put for a very long time. Yeah. Eight months, not leaving the County who has,

this is probably the longest I’ve stayed for. Yeah. how have you found it? Okay. Cause I, I I’d sort of done three years and I was, I was [00:17:00] ready to be sort of placed for a bit, but as I say, now, I’m sort of. Scratching at the surface, like a sort of cat trying to get out of the house. Just sort of scratching slowly thinking about the next one.

Yeah.

And then I managed the floor. I can lock down quite lucky with the timing in Sweden. How did that all go for you? Well, it, swings and roundabouts. The, I was meant to be doing a seven, eight day Trek, and the first six days, like absolutely fantastic. Honestly, I, I would say that sort of the six best daysbof adventure I have ever had with everything I had dreamt, it would be more, I honestly couldn’t believe it.

I think I really needed it as well. Having not. Had a proper adventure fix since [00:18:00] January, by the time October came, I needed something. So I really, really appreciate it. but yeah, day six things changed. Oh bit. And I had so much snow for a couple of days, that I went from tracking and sort of ankle deep snow that was fine to track and I can make easy progress to that then being up to my knees and sometimes after my waist, Provide 90% of the time, which is absolutely exhausting.

and the issue that I then faced was I had about 36 kilometers left. and that was meant to take me two days and I had enough food for that. No problem, but because of the amount of snow, my progress was just so drastically. Slowed those days, half the distance I wanted to, and it was exhausting and brutally cold.

Minus 15 to minus 18 windchill. and I knew that I wouldn’t make it back to the village before I ran out of [00:19:00] food. So I faced a really tricky decision, but ended up having to activate the SOS on my Garmin, on my sort of GPS device. And, yeah, I got rescued by a helicopter, quite dramatic, and I really dont like being the one that causes a scene and makes a fuss, but needs must.

There was no way that I would’ve got back without it. And I got helicopter ride. And I got to see the Northern lights at night. So yeah, there were some bonuses to it. A helicopter ride out is not the worst thing in the world, but I’m sure, you know, probably in quite a dramatic situation for you to sort of pull the trigger and have to be rescued.

Yeah. It was really interesting trying to make the decision because I was no. no actual urgency to it. There was no immediate danger. I had enough food for another couple of days. I had plenty [00:20:00] of warm clothes. I had like really good tents. I had all the gear with me that I needed. If I needed to, I, whenever I had imagined activating that SOS and feeling out of an adventure, I could always imagine it would be a really intense moment of where everything’s going wrong, or like someone’s injured themselves, like a break my leg, but it was actually.

Other than the fact that it was kind of Gale force blizzard around me really, really cold, everything else was under control. so it was really hard to reconcile that situation with the fact that actually I did need rescue. so it was, it was really hard to make that decision and a big part of me for a while.

I felt like I was really over reacting. in hindsight and having spoken to this huge mountain rescue team, I knew that I wasn’t over reacting at all and I need made. Right. Call. but it was really hard to try and sort of see the situation, the, what it was. [00:21:00] yeah, it was it’s tricky and it was also hard facing that completely by myself.

Like I couldnt phone anyone for advice, I can get someone to tell me I was doing the right thing or provide other options. With anyone until I activated the SOS. and that was, that was for me the hardest it was an incredibly, yeah isolating, not fun. Are these, sort of rescues sort of commonplace with your adventures?

Or is this a one off? This is very much a one off or I never had time activate the SOS. How to get the emergency services involved. Once before on the trek that I was doing last year and actually more dramatic. I, it’s a kind of funny story. I had been stung by Hornets on my finger, just beneath my knuckle.

and I had such a severe reaction that my finger pretty much [00:22:00] doubled in size. which would kind of be okay, but I had a ring on my finger, my rings off the track I was doing, and my ring actors cut circulation off my finger, which then tangibly and had, I’ve seen the blood flowing through it. A Swedish chap that I was with trying to cut the ring off my finger with the little scissors on a pen knife.

And actually just finished to, gouge to my finger. So I then had a blue finger that I’ve ring that was not coming off at all and a blood pouring down my hand. and we realized that we needed to get the emergency services involved to get the ring off paramedics. he very proudly got the ring off and then took me to hospital. but I was very lucky that time round, the, his had, we waited a couple of hours.

I think it would have gone too long without circulation and the [00:23:00] paramedics. So they would have had to amputate now really needed that. But also for the eight days running up to that, I had been completely by myself. I’d been, I hadn’t had phone signal. I’d had my Garmin and my SOS. like being by myself in my tent and I would have had to call by myself, really quite fun to get a helicopter then as well, but grateful to have another person with me in calm.

He got very wrapped up, so trying to keep him calm. It was almost a bigger focus than what was going on with my finger.

So what the guy who was actually meant to be looking at helping you was actually the one sort of panicking and mental and you’re like calm down. It’s everything’s all right. And he got worse after he fell on my finger as well. Cause then he was so apologetic and he just didn’t know what to do at night.

You know, could [00:24:00] he’d actually hurt me then as well. It made the situation worse as I was having to read. David is fine. You’re trying to help your heart was in the right place. Maybe just missed off this one a little bit. Dont take kind of like this it’s just something again. Yeah, Penknife scissors. I mean, there is blunt, they’re usually pretty blunt.

So it was the sharpest thing.

Was this a proper Swiss army or are we talking made in China?

Not, like 127 hours.

Sure. And so when you’re out in the sort of situations and you know, times are pretty tough, what sort of motivates you to sort of keep going. Oh, that’s a good question. generally, so the toughest times, me actually, aren’t these kinds of moments where I’m finger or having to [00:25:00] consider the more challenging moments, when the weather has been crap for like three days in, row.

And it’s really foggy. And,

those are the moments where actually. I struggled the most, and it’s in those moments, I think the, the main thing that I do is soft as are my, myself that I have chosen to put myself in that situation. And I, yeah, I take this conscious decision to go and do something because I want to challenge myself.

I want to push myself and see how tough I really am. And it’s that those sorts of moments that are going to prove to me that I am tough. So I always get competitive with myself. Like, come on, you can do this. See what you find, what wet socks are four days, big deal, just crack on. so there’s that. And then. Trying to sort of distract myself from what’s going on around me as well.

I’ve got a ridiculously good [00:26:00] imagination I can daydream for days on end. And that honestly gets me through like really, really miserable sections of these adventures, these tracks. and I, yeah, I rely on that a lot because I don’t take, I don’t take, headphones say. Why some people would choose to listen to some music that’s going to just snap them out of that mood or go on a podcast, distract themselves.

I kind of don’t want that easy out. I want, I want it to be my own responsibility, like fully down to me to get through those moments and so far I have. It’s quite nice because by not taking headphones, you really immerse yourself within the environment that you have. You know, I think it’s very easy just to put the headphones on.

And although you’re sort of looking around, if you have them on and you’re listening to something, you didn’t hear what’s around you, you don’t hear the sort of [00:27:00] subtle things like, but songs or crickets or. Whatever it is, or the sound of the snow crunching on your feet.

Yeah, I kind of, I realized on one of my earlier trips, I was walking how’s the mask response has been by myself and big sections of that trip. I was kind of having to look really industrial areas. I was just Tarmac, and concrete all around and it was really monotonous. Testing in a very different way, not physically Testing, but mentally it was so challenging and I’m a pain.

and I watched for a couple of hours and then turned around and looked back and I had absolutely no recollection of what I can just spend a couple of hours walking past. Like I couldn’t have described it. I could gave out there now, and I wouldn’t need that. I haven’t been there. I kind of realized that.

I get so easily distracted. And I, I didn’t want that. I wanted [00:28:00] to experience every bit of high and the lows. So yeah, no more headphones me, they easy out kind of like driving on auto pilot. You sort of get in the car, you drive and then suddenly you arrive and you’re like, Oh, I can’t even remember. What’s just happened.

Do you think I’ll be getting in a car with you anytime soon? So, so you’ve done this I, and I sort of see from your Instagram, you’re quite into cold water swimming at the moment. Have you always been into that? I’ve only just got the last year or so. so I, I did it, it’s a bit growing up, so I’m part Swedish and every summer holiday I’d go to Sweden.

and we would always swim in the sea and the lakes that’s pretty cold water. so I think I kind of had a bit of an introduction to it growing up, no matter what the weather, no matter how cold the water, but then in my adult life, I [00:29:00] didn’t until I moved to Cornwall really. So just over a year ago, I started swimming.

and particularly since March, I have swum at least a couple of times a week for March, April, may I swam every single day in rain or shine. And there was a lot of rain quite awhile. and yeah, three, I think for me the biggest thing that I can. Read that cold water swimming is the community and my friends. I’m really lucky that down here, I’ve got a group, there are six of us women and become friends through dunking ourselves in uncomfortably, cold bodies of water.

and that’s just other, such sort of comradery through, doing that in the high that you have afterwards, you can chat with friends. It’s yeah, that’s really powerful. It’s the temperature of the sea at the moment. Oh, do you know your, I haven’t actually measured the sea recently, me, but we were swimming in a quarry, [00:30:00] a couple of weeks ago and that was 10 and a half or 11 degrees.

So it’s cold, but it’s not too. No, I, I went, I was up in Hampstead, Heath, cause I’m up in London at the moment. And that was 12, which I’d say is pretty, pretty cold. Yeah. That’s, that’s pretty nippy. How long do you stay in for

five minutes? Yeah, sounds about right. We sort of actually started in the summer, down in Devon. We were, we used to go every morning before breakfast to go for a sort of swim and down that actually was it the summer of September. Anyway, the sea was freezing. I mean, you would’ve thought it might’ve warmed up over the summer period, but it was so cold and gradually day after day, you [00:31:00] slightly get used to it.

I’m still, I’m slowly trying to mold myself into cold showers. But as I say, the difference between cold and warm showers is it’s quite a drastic difference. Yeah. Some of my friends really swear by their cold showers. It’s not like outdoor showers as well as an issue. So it’s up to the Hose is really cool and they love that.

But I cannot go on from, with, with that. I’m fine. Getting the sea like, yes, the first kind of minute or the first 30 seconds when you’re walking in can be pretty brutal. So, but once you’re in it, it’s fine, but I just. Yeah, I think it takes a bit of practice and learning slowly. You sort of have to just turn it from the sort of form to the mid range and then, or you just go right.

Suck it up. Maybe actually give it a try. Yeah. I mean, it’s definitely worth a try. And so what’s your plan for the next year? Or say with these adventures or you’ve got something in the [00:32:00] pipeline. well, I actually dont for the first time in quite a while. because very excited me, I’m getting a dog. and this is like the most exciting thing that has ever happened in my whole entire life.

I’ve been waiting probably 8 years to have my own dog. and I finally decided now is the time, but obviously that means I can’t really go away for any long periods of time. Because it’s just my dog. I live by myself, say next year is going to be all about micro adventures with puppy entails. I do have a little trip plans for January or February going back up to the arctic this time with skis.

So I don’t get caught out by all the snow. and so that’ll be about 10 days, I think is the plan. Predominantly in Finland. but other than that, yeah, my, my adventure calendar is looking [00:33:00] pretty bare. And in terms of your, cause you obviously spend a lot of time up in sort of Scandinavia and Sweden on.

So what would you, what sort of parts in the Arctic would you recommend our listeners? If they’re sort of thinking on going on these big hikes. So I would say my, my favorites place personally. Well, it makes it accessible places, obviously national park, just fascinating to be in the start or end point.

And there’s a fantastic mountain station. It’s very much set up for hiking or skiers in the winter. and from that, there is just a vast network of trails that you can probably do or a five day hike or track, or you can stay for months if you’re like me. but that’s an incredibly. To start off. you have a really good mix on there being the infrastructure and [00:34:00] having to eat can stay in during the summer and winter months, but you will see, do you get a sense of being in the middle of nowhere and you can avoid people with these cabins if you want to be as awkward as possible.

say honesty, I think is the one and it’s also. One of the best places in the world is definitely the best place in Europe to see the Northern lights. That is a part of the show where we ask the same five questions to every guest each week. and the first one is on your trips. What’s the one bizarre thing that you crave or miss from home.

This is going to sound, I’m dealing with this as bizarre or really boring. but the thing that I miss the most is fresh fruit and vegetables.

Okay. I mean, I mean, on the podcast, we’ve had chairs, Jaffa cakes, [00:35:00] coffee. And I always say fresh coffee with me, coffee, pot of coffee. I always,

yeah. I’d say yeah, sort of adding to the collection of bizarre things, which is great, but free and free pages. Not that bizarre. I wouldn’t say you see, it’s honestly the only thing that I really agree I’m I’m totally fine doing that in anything really. I’m pretty happy.

did you have a favorite adventure book? I put some thought into this and I think the one book I read a couple of times and Mark, and it inspires me every time it’s dare to do by Sarah Outon. It’s absolutely incredible. She spent four years cycling, kayaking around the world and it’s phenomenal. yes, I, I, I went to a talk, [00:36:00] where she was speaking, which was fascinating.

Yeah, but she’s got some funny harrowing tales of being rescued from the Ocean row. Cause a couple of them went drastically wrong retraumatizing machine minds and speaks about it in such a way, kind of makes an Ocean row. But when we say terrifies me, I’m just gonna makes me want to do it more. I, I, I suppose for me, ocean rowing, there’s something about it, which doesn’t appeal to me at all.

But at the same time, that appeals to me, it’s the same. So, because you didn’t want to do something, you should probably try it and see, rather than just sort of. Kind of to one side, it’s all these sort of adventures where I’m sort of like, now that doesn’t really appeal to me, but then at the same time, I’m [00:37:00] like, if someone said, you know, go and do this, do you want to, I in a blink of an eye, just go.

Yep, sure. Let’s do it. Let’s see what, see what happens. See how it goes. Yeah. I just have this image in my mind of being in a nation, very vague by myself in the middle of a nation and just a few, rather than seeing water in every direction. I want to experience that. So, another one is your, did you have an inspirational figure growing up?

Probably. And this is with hindsight, but I was growing up my inspirational figures, like. Steven Gerrard. I changed quite a lot Liverpool fan as well. It was once upon a time I used to play football his life. but kind of looking back when I think about it, I think actually my aunt, my mom’s sister, she was [00:38:00] really, really inspirational and influenced me a lot with that and kind of realizing it and she.

She worked the world health organization and lived all into the world. And whenever we got to see her so excited to hear about hearing about these countries that she lived in, and she’d always bring us something from that country stories. And it was always say captivating, and I think it kind of instilled the sense of wanting to experience things and experience the world.

yeah, so I’d say. Auntie Megan, she’s going to love that. Very nice. Do you have a sort of favorite quotes as well? I do have a favorite quote and it’s one that I actually, I use a lot in life. it is by some fonts, easy and start by doing what’s necessary then do what’s do what’s possible. And then you’re doing the impossible.

I just [00:39:00] feel like I’ve possibly paraphrased that a little bit, but it’s just the idea of when you’ve got a massive task or challenge ahead of you just work out what that first step is. You absolutely have to crack on with that. And then things sort of start to fall into place. And once you’ve done one thing, something else is impossible then.

Yeah. So I used that when we were starting the kayaking trip, when we needed funding.

We kind of looked at what the essential things that I used it for my dissertation as well, when I had to like 20,000 words to write and a research project to create new ideas. Yeah. So that is my go to quote. Oh, very nice. Yeah. We’ve had some good ones on the show so far and yeah, it’s always good to hear different ones.

It’s quite funny. Cause I actually, well, actually there’s so many that you could sort of read it off, but that hasn’t been [00:40:00] like a repeat of anyone that will be different, which is good. So there’s the one that I’m actually, you’ve got something on my fridge, that I like it’s quite relevant now, I guess.

failure is the condiments that gives success. It’s flavour. That is good. One of my favorites was Churchill’s. One about failure is not fatal. Success is not final. It’s always the courage to continue that counts. Ooh,

Which, I have to say I came across it when I was doing my, one of my runs and. one of my followers is sort of, I was sort of browsing through people who like commented on one of my. pictures. And it was like a sort of bio in her Instagram, and I was like screenshot and like, steal [00:41:00] that.

So it was really good. One, I say, people listening are always keen to travel and go on the sort of grand trips. What’s the one thing that you would recommend them to get started. This is going to sound abstract, but. it’s I wish someone had said to me work our water is that it stopped me from taking that first step.

So it may be that it’s fear of the unknown, or maybe that you didn’t know your focus skills or equipment say work out what it is that is being that barrier or preventing you from doing what you want. And instead about tackling that, where you even start thinking about like a big Trek or small treadmill, like the bigger picture, this person energy, and some thought into.

Nice, getting yourself ready to do it so that when the time does come to start the adventure you are ready and you’ve kind of already had that initial battle to get. [00:42:00] Yeah,

I think that makes sense. And so, people listening, how can they find you and follow your adventures in the future? The find out what is my Instagram, which is just Anna Blackwell. I always got websites and annablackwell.co.uk. I’m on Twitter at underscore Annablackwell. And Facebook Anna Blackwell adventurer.

It’s been amazing listening to them. And, as I say, I look forward to seeing all the adventures that you have with Bilbo in the future, along with your cold water swims and see how the cold showers go. Yeah, I’m gonna give that a try. Now. That was kind of what I said. Oh yeah. This is not what you were saying.

Now that I’ve thought was able to do that. Like [00:43:00] now I have to do it. I try and do a 30 day challenge of like once every day, just get a group of people to force ourselves to do it and then hold each other accountable. So you’re like right 1st of December, that’s it? No, actually I do need, I need accountability and you got the people to make sticks.

Well, well, okay, well, we could try that and see how we do as long as can. Some days I have

a tough one.

I’ll be looking for rivers December the season, pretty cold temperature as well. That is true. I think it’s always, you have one cold shower, one cold shower a day. That’s it. You can have a cold for two minutes and be like, right. I’m done. I’m going to warm now, but I think that’s okay. We’ll try that.

We’ll try and get some more people involved. [00:44:00] Anyone listening? The December challenge, 30 days 31, Cold Shower every morning.

Well, thank you so much again. And, yeah, December challenge. It is amazing. Thank you.

EP.006: Ash Bhardwaj

ASH BHARDWAJ (TRAVEL WRITER & STORYTELLER)

Ash Bhardwaj is a travel-writer, film-maker and storyteller who explores the world. From a young age, he had a love of travel. On this week’s episode, we speak with him about his 8500 km overland from the top of Norway to Romania, exploring former Soviet countries and their neighbours, at a time of increased tensions between Russia and the West. We talk about what motivates him and inspires him in his pursuits.

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Transcript of our Conversation

Ash Bharwadj

[00:00:00] Ash Bharwadj: hello? How are you doing great to have you on the show and, amazing sort of adventures that you’ve done over the last couple of years. I sort of been following your journey since you were doing sort of walking the Nile. With Levison. and so have you always had this love for adventures or with this something quite recent?

Yeah. I didn’t really always have this love, so it started when I. Look back at it. The critical moment was, going to New Zealand, when I was in sixth form in my local state school. But if I think back to the things that probably triggered it in the first place, my favorite TV show when I was a [00:01:00] kid was star Trek, which is star Trek, the next generation, which is very much about going out and, encountering new cultures.

New places and trying to gain an understanding and seeing what we can learn from other, other cultures. So I think. on a very subtle level, having that as a, as a sort of more or less than from an early age was probably quite, quite a good one to have. And the big one surprisingly probably came through my parents, neither of which traveled much.

My father migrated from India when he was 16, but then basically stayed mostly in England. Yet he had a fairly gregarious and adventurous spirit in the way he did things, set up a bunch of different. Bars restaurants, takeaway Fisher chip takeaways and Windsor, and growing up in that environment meant that I spent a lot of time talking to older people, people from very different backgrounds, yet Nigerian friends, he had of course Indian family, [00:02:00] and people that just came into the restaurant that I would just sit and chat to from the age of two onwards.

Yeah, my mum. Well, I actually think back on it, this is something I’ve only really considered recently. She’s quite an adventurous person. When she was 16, she went to go live up in Scotland. Her mum had gone to Peru on her own in the 1960s. Now, if you think about a woman traveling on her own to prune the 1960s, just quite how adventurous that is, it’s quite a remarkable thing, really.

and. My mum had also traveled to New Zealand in her twenties and New Zealand would have been a very different place back then. Fast forward to when I was 16, I carried on loving star Trek and games, workshop, and all these sort of slightly geeky things. Although I had an uncle that really inspired me this love of astronomy in spaces, whether it’s the star Trek science fiction side.

And I moved to Windsor boys school, which is a local state comprehensive school in my hometown [00:03:00] winter. And in the first year we discovered that the rugby team was going on a turret Australia, New Zealand, and the cook islands, the following summer, the one person who dropped out and my mum, single mum raised me, effectively on social income and social housing, mostly, had a second job working or had a job working as a cleaner.

And she said to me, look, if you can get into the rugby team, I will. Pay for your cost to go to New Zealand. So she worked really hard to pay for my trip to New Zealand because she knew that I would just love it. Having been there herself. She was like, look, these opportunities don’t come along very often.

and they certainly don’t come along with this sort of affordability given what you’re going to do. So yeah. That was the deal. I was rubbish at rugby, but I managed to make it into the teams. The prop, I was a terrible prop as a total Roku player. but it got me to Australia, New Zealand and the cook islands.

And I think New Zealand in particular was a place that really [00:04:00] struck me because of the motory heritage there, which unlike most other indigenous cultures in, European colonized nations has survived in a very strong way in the modern identity of New Zealand. Obviously they’ve, had. Over dispossession of land and various other crimes against them over the last hundred and 50 years yet at the same time, they’ve managed to retain an important part of New Zealand identity and existing culture and New Zealand politics and law.

And I found that fascinating, a country like New Zealand, that from the outside looked very Western. In the way it was set up the legislature, being able to move around, they speak English. A lot of the people are white, but at the same time, there’s this, Polynesian element to their identity, which actually has become stronger over the last 20 years, I’d say.

And it really triggered me this interest. And I think it was there that my love [00:05:00] of travel was really triggered. And actually it was going back to New Zealand in 2007. That really got me into the outdoors. I’d been skiing. I’d been, I’d done one ski ski season by this point. I, you know, I hated walking in the outdoors.

I, that’s not true. My mom used to take us out. We used to go walking around the great park and Windsor with our dog and stuff. So, you know, I probably developed a love of the outdoors, but I wasn’t some of that. Loved going camping. I love going hiking up mountains. I was, I didn’t, I certainly didn’t hate it.

I had an appreciation of it. I wasn’t one of these people who, you know, like Rob McFarland, he’d spent all of his life up in the mountains, broken, followed the great Nat nature writer. and yeah, I, I tried skiing in my first year of university, decided I wanted to do a ski seas and did one in France at the end of university.

Had no idea what I wanted to do. bizarrely enough, I got a place to go to Sandhurst with what was then the light infantry as my sponsorship. Regimen. but there [00:06:00] are three things I wanted to do. I wanted to be a cowboy and somewhere I wants to be a ski instructor or wants to go back and play rugby better than New Zealand.

So I learned how to ride horses and Windsor by mocking up the, the Queens stables and the great bark in exchange for riding lessons. and then when it stayed with some, These guys who’d come in and lived with us in England, was a coaching rowing at the Windsor boys school. So it’s going to stay with them in Tasmania, worked on some farms and then moved over to New Zealand, played rugby.

And whilst I was there, I trained as a ski instructor. That was also the first time I started to do big hikes in the outdoors. Multi-day hikes like the burn. Yeah. I, I have to sort of agree. I, my sort of love sort of came in the Alps as well when. You know, I started when I did a season, I was skiing. And then, well, I, I actually found the love of walking up the mountains far more enjoyable than just sort of skiing and going on these big day, [00:07:00] hikes of the mountain, finding the sort of fresh snow.

And I actually found the hike almost as enjoyable as the ski down sort of going somewhere where no one else is going or no one’s ever gone. And that sort of love of the outdoors sort of came about quite late in my time as well. Do you think, your time at Santa’s also, molded you towards the sort of travel writing?

Absolutely not, I didn’t actually go to Santos until 2014. So I decided to not join the regular army. I, at the time the Iraq war had just started. And I was like, I’m not sure if this is a moral war or a just war. I did philosophy at university. So I did, morality and justice of warfare as, as part of my studies.

I don’t think this was more, or I don’t think this is just, and I don’t think it’s war that’s gonna have any good [00:08:00] outcomes. And I think it’s safe to say that 17 years on it has done nothing but bad things that will. so I decided that I probably couldn’t join a or an organization in which I had no choice in that I did later join the army reserve, which is, which is a different organization.

And I’ve done some operations, but only in the UK. So operation rescripts, which was the response to COVID-19. yeah, I, I think it’s something that I, I haven’t come to a final decision on. Well, how I feel about that yet. And I think it’s, it’s, it’s important to always, reflect on what it is you’re doing.

And I think that organization is founded in patriotism duty, various other things. I think sometimes the challenge is, is the things that the army is asked to do aren’t necessarily for the good of the nation or wherever else. And I think IRAK showed that, but eventually I joined as an army reservist.

the organization [00:09:00] itself separate from the thing that’s asked to do is a really good organization to be part of, sadness teaches you. The first thing Sounders teaches you is tolerance of discomfort and tolerance of being tired. I mean, that’s. That’s part of the conditioning that you go through, particularly in the starting phases, you learn some very practical skills B being in the outdoors, obviously, you learn to just sort of like, okay, I’m worth that’s all right.

I can. Deal with that. I can resolve that problem. You learn navigation, you learn problem management, you learn decision-making. They give you, systems to do that with, the whole system to assess problems a bit like imagining consultant, but, for dismantled close combat warfare, rather than, trying to find people from businesses say, it was a great thing to do, Did it improve?

My love of the outdoors will most certainly I, [00:10:00] spent lots of time in the outdoors and I think you get the opportunity to do things that you never wise with other, see, you know, seeing doing a Dawn attack in Kenya, on a training area, doing a Dawn attack in Wales and a training area. And you see these.

Places that are extremely remote. That very few people will ever go to an embassy at that time of day. I see many more sunrises as a product of being in the army reserve than I would have done in any other parts of my life. And I cherish that and I met some great people. Who’ve done some really interesting things as well through it, specifically how it’s triggered and assist to my career was when I went to Estonia in 2017.

So it was on a training exercise as part of the. British military deployment to Eastern Europe to deter Russian aggression. Often Russia had invaded Ukraine in Crimea and Donbass. they hadn’t openly invade both of those. They, they, they did it with unmarked soldiers, but understand, at least [00:11:00] I’ve got a bit scared.

so being part of NATO, We were deployed there and understanding what was going on and seeing those stories of what was happening in Australia with the mix of the Russians and the Estonians of the lakes in the Soviet union that directly contributed to Agilent, which is the podcast project I did with the tub.

All right. Well, and so that’s when, so what the project you did with the Telegraph woods, was that you coming up with the idea or was that the Telegraph. Coming out with the idea and asking you to go on it. It’s completely my different beginning to end. So I had first written for the Telegraph in 2013, I’d gone to Everest with walking with the wounded, which is a charity that tries to get a wounded servicemen back into employment physically, or, or not invisible injuries, getting them back into, Into work and a sense of purpose in their life.

[00:12:00] I’d gone to Everest with them to film it as part of a PR campaign. And I then took my dad’s ashes to India from there. My father was Indian and I wrote that up for the Telegraph. So that was the first piece I wrote for the Telegraph. And for that, I just stayed in touch. When I did walking to Norwich live, I walked about pretty about 15% of walking and over deliver.

I think we walked about. I can never quite remember. I think it was, it was it 700 or a thousand closes was the same road miles and a thousand kilometers. Anyway, along way, I wrote that up for the Telegraph as well, and then brought a few bits and pieces again over the years after that. And then I came with this idea.

I was, I was intrigued by, you know, The legacy of the Soviet union and this Russian, the Asperger living in Estonia, what that meant for Russia’s Estonia’s identity insecurity, how Russia might use to leverage that as they had done in Ukraine to justify an invasion and annexation, and realize that this was something was going all along the Eastern border of Europe, [00:13:00] where, where, where the rest of Europe, Russia, and the.

The legacy of world war two. It never really goes in that region. And, the impact of what had happened when the Soviet union had, allied with Nazi, Germany and jointly invaded Eastern Europe and Poland, and also the legacy of, the ongoing, the Soviet occupation for the years. So I wanted to go and, Explore that more.

And I went to the Telegraph and I said, Oh, I think I can’t remember. I was going to film it or audio record at first. I think I have come to find the idea of the podcast, if that was generated in conversation with them. I’d originally got to try to get a con and then they’d had this guy called Greg Dickinson.

Who’s one of their content editors. Who’s a brilliant guy. and Greg and I kind of talked about turning into a podcast. And so we did. and I love doing this podcast. So I’m astonished that not more people have [00:14:00] done travel narrative podcasts, because I think it’s a great way to immerse the listener in the place that you’re going to, the way that you just don’t get with with, with writing’s quite the same extent because you have the audio, you have everything else.

So my friend pips do it and I have now created a new podcast called the first mile, which is a mix of that immersive travel narrative. Audio storytelling with, sort of behind the scenes and how to conversations with people who are the best at what they do in the travel industry. so yeah, you know, tell me the travel writing so that it did.

That’s awesome. That’s a, an incredible trip and see the, I, as I was saying earlier, the idea with PIP is that you will travel from place to place and record from. Well, the great thing about having your own podcast, rather than doing it for, for commissioner or publisher or broadcasters, you can do it.

[00:15:00] and I think both of us wanted to get away from the sort of interview format podcasts, which we both being a part of the pedal. So beause our experience at both of us have done these quite long adventures pips done put cycle from. Hong Kong back to London. That was her first big adventure. She was then the rebel adventure editor said socks across the arms in various other bits and pieces.

You know, I did a bunch of walking. Then I’ve left a bunch of walking the Himalayas with the live. I did a bunch of my separate things, walked around our Bader in the footsteps of world war two missions. there was the Japanese stuff I’ve done a few times. It was the, excellence, you aren’t curtain. So between us, we’ve both had some pretty interesting tricks and used them to cover some interesting stories.

And I think we just. What it’s do it in different ways. Yeah. So the podcast will be a benefit. Got dispatches the way we did it with excellence. I’m sure we’ll go off and do some pieces where PIP and I golf and a mini adventure at some [00:16:00] point as well. She’s got a baby now as well. We’ll only say we’re going to have a whole bunch of interesting stuff with, her, her doing adventures with Willow.

So yeah, the first mile, check it out. So I will, I will. And for anyone listening, go and check it out too. So, you, your adventures with Levison because that’s probably how I first came across. You was when he was walking the miles, you’ve done the Himalayas and walking the mile with him. And you were the, I went on all of those expeditions, but I never did all of them from beginning to end.

Then I went to university together and after he left the parents, I’d already written for a few of the papers and working as a ski instruction. Doing a bunch of stuff within the travel writing world, Lev is a remarkable talent at networking and learning from people. And then, doing it better than them.

He got in touch cause he was like, Ashley, I’m trying against travel writing. [00:17:00] I see you’re already doing it. We go to catch up for coffee. I was working in Switzerland, running a. Ski chalet in verbally having been a ski instructor there. And he came out and worked with me for awhile. We plotted and planned some travels.

He’d already done a bunch of his own stuff. He’d already backpack from London to daddy via Afghanistan and he’s year after year now, just before the British army went into helmets, Afghanistan was relatively stable at that point. And he, had set up a company called secret compass with a fellow power, power being a member of the British Army’s parachute regiment.

And. They were doing eventually some really cool software going to Afghanistan to the wakhan corridor. And I tried to plot and create a way to make that into a TV program, which didn’t happen. And then they ended up doing a bunch of location management stuff for production companies. He spoke to a director, eventually walking, the all was commissioned, [00:18:00] and it was on, it was off, it was doing it with another guy there who’s doing what on his own.

And they’ve actually asked me to do the whole of walk in the door with it. and I decided to reserve Santos, which is probably the worst career decision of my life. And, he ended up becoming a television superstar and, I’m still just, you know, making podcasts over the Telegraph, but no, it was, it was great.

He, wanted people that he trusted to do elements with him. So he knew that I could film a video production company by then digital dandy, mostly doing marketing and a website videos, but he knew when you had film, I’d trained, I’d done. I’d done a bunch of TV stuff already as a. Cheating researcher basically persuaded the production company that I needed to go out and film more than most remakes sections.

Cause he wouldn’t trust the other camera men to do it with him and [00:19:00] he didn’t trust him, but he just, you know, it was a case of those, those guys had big pieces of kit. It would have been impractical for them to do some of the long distance pieces, do the more remote sections. So I went with him for those sessions, and that was brilliant.

And I basically did the same thing walking in the Himalayas, walk in the Americas. Went out and beveled around Georgia with him for crossing the caucuses and then walked through part of a mine with him for Arabia. so yeah, being on all of them, which is I think going, walking with elephants, unfortunately, but, yeah, so, you know, let’s, there’s a great friend of mine.

He came to my wedding. He was one of my, one of my better men and, Hey, you know, I have done some great adventures together over the years. Amazing. I’m so how, in terms of the trips, like the Himalayas denial, I suppose with these and you being a filmmaker, you really only need a camera microphone, especially in these sort of remote [00:20:00] areas.

So the key thing you need to do, first of all, is do your research and learn how to film. And I think one of the big mistakes, a lot of adventures make is they think that their suffering is the way to interesting things with humor or landscape. It’s the most interesting thing to view which landscape is nice, but, you know, we’ve had painted stories about Antarctica or Everest, and I’d think I get bored by hearing about somebody telling me about how hard their journey is because.

You chose to do it. What was really great about doing this? And I’d worked in TV, documentaries in the UK, which if you look at anything, that’s about the challenge a person goes through it’s about their own personal transformation and how they deal with those things. Not just, this is really hard. Oh, my legs.

Aren’t breathing. and if you’ve done that within stuff in the UK, that is, British British coat fairs or things that really matter to people in Britain, whether that’s about poverty [00:21:00] or, or challenges they’ve gone through with, within their lives. and you’ve worked on documentaries like that.

You bring that idea, that storytelling to that, that format, they had a couple of great, the, the main crew were excellent. Jamie Barry is a very experienced filmmaking. He’d done loads of series that were in challenging locations, but very much good at the heart of the human stories there. And Neil Bonner, who’s gone on to do some incredible stuff, including a story about a.

Young woman, with breast cancer who founded strategies, Copperfield Chris, her experiences of going through breast cancer as a young woman. and he’s made some amazing films here. You actually did that after walking there now, but to be able to learn from those too was a whiskey. And so what we did beforehand is they mapped out the journey that identified what were the key points along the way?

How, what, how would live. Developers canceling the way. And if you watch the [00:22:00] first episode of walking now, let’s still mix like an army officer. And, you know, he hasn’t become a much more, much more worldly, I guess. It’s just those more people of greater interest. Seeing him evolve his character is why we’re fascinated with it.

The cultures that he meets along the way, whether we’ve not really encountered before. And seeing how he interacts with them and how they react to him. That’s what you really need to do. So you’re not doing something like I’m not doing a Bruce Perry talk show where he immerses himself in a tribe for a period of time, Lev is passing through these places and he encounters them, but he’s not living with them.

He’s not an anthropologist. in those places. So it’s understanding how all those different stories fit together and having, Boston on our first who’s, who was really important because Boston was able to express. Yeah. Bronson was already from the Congo. Now lived in Uganda and [00:23:00] many of these places were familiar to possible.

Others were not. So seeing Boston’s interaction. well, I think was key because it’s very, we hit so often Africa referred to as a single. Place, but there’s more ethnic and genetic diversity in Africa than the rest of the world put together. So saying something like Boston traveling for a wander through to South Sudan is eventually did, was, was, was a very important, aspect of that film as well.

And then you, you do your training in filmmaking in order to understand how to capture those stories. but doing all that planning beforehand is the vital part of it. I think you think is the sort of key to capturing like the perfect storytelling in those sort of adventures. So in all observational documentary, which affected is what walking the Nile is.

You sit down and very similar to the army. You, you, you sit down and you assess the entire property and you assess the entire journey and the army call it. Imagine consulting, you call it a problem in the army. You call it a mission [00:24:00] in filmmaking. You call it the story. What’s the journey. What are all the different phases?

what are the key beats of the story? So in stories only call it the key beats, where are the key moments again, to happen? So in a military operations, what are the key phase of the operation? Where things, places we need to be in work. And so then in storytelling, you go. Who are the people that we’re going to encounter them?

What are they likely to say? What are the themes? If you think about walking the Nile, there’s like three or four different themes. There there’s the journey of level walking along, going from a round to each, there is the, personal development of left along that place. There are the socio political, economic and military.

Stories that are going along simultaneously go underneath the, the, at that time was the legacy of the Arab spring in Egypt. It is environmental destruction and poaching and Uganda. It is, the police state in Sudan. [00:25:00] It is the legacy of, the genocide in Rwanda. So those are all different themes and topics.

And. Stories that you have along the way. and then it’s who are the people that go to tell us those stories, how’s that going to interact with them? So you, you basically plan all of these things out and you go right today. We, we used to get information through from the team back in the back office, like over the next week, these are the places you guys are going because you know, 11 plan for years in advance here are the things we found a there that might be interesting for you to encounter.

So every day me is I as a camera man, walking with over and thinking, right, what’s coming up today, what’s happening in three days, time on three in a week’s time, level’s going to be crossing into South Sudan. So I just thought getting him talking about now, how he’s feeling and looking forward to that, as you keep things, always trying to get stuff out of the contributor in that case live, and then thinking about how that interacts and intersects with the environment around him.

And then, you know, [00:26:00] filming is going to be telling you about why it’s. Yeah, I suppose it’s also like the sort of three act narrative of like build up the complex, the resume. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean that, that’s, that’s a fundamental it’s storytelling then you just, you’re basically painting by numbers out on top of it.

And then you also remember that as soon as you go out into the environment, all of that goes to. It goes to shit because you’re into interacting with the real world. But unless you’ve done that plan in the first place, you are not prepared for what you encounter, who was it? the Eisenhower said, plans are useless, but planning is essential or plans are useless, but planning is vital.

You know, no parents vice first contact with the enemy with that kind of stuff. So, you know, you have to do it with that planning. So that when you encounter something, you’re like, okay, how does that intersect with what I’m trying to do? You know, if you do a platoon attack and you suddenly discover machine gun nest, you’re like, I can not do [00:27:00] that, but I know the train is like, what are the other assets I have around me that I can bring it onto this problem and deal with it.

That’s administering when you’re filming. Yeah, those tragic things that happened in, in walk, the not, and then it’s case, how do you, how do you do that from a storytelling perspective? I sort of agree with that in terms of, I think it’s Mike Tyson, who said everyone has a plan until they get smacked in the face.

And with adventure, we did a trip along the silk road, going from Switzerland to Afghanistan and back again. And in terms of storytelling, it was. As you say, we sort of had a plan of how to get through it and through these different cultures, but, sort of on a day-to-day basis or filming, it was very difficult to sort of construct the story behind it until the, story that we, that we thought was of interest because on a sort of day-to-day basis.

You’re so as you say, most of the time, a [00:28:00] lot of it’s very mundane. It’s probably review it was walking. 20 miles a day, and you’re going through a desert, not seeing anyone it’s just you and Levison and the same with us, it would be driving for, and the guide they’ve always had a local guide. So there’s always a story of a local guide in their experiences and feelings of things.

So you always have that, you know, when I fast forward to when I was doing the new art cursing, the, the challenge that I think you always face, if you’re trying to be the producer director and you’re the, you’re the main. You’re the you’re the expedition lead is you’re dealing so much with the abdomen and the transport and what you’re doing, that you do not have enough distance to, document it properly, which is why, you know, the documentary team on walking and are the Americans in Himalayas came in and out for me when I was doing the new iron curtain, the challenge I faced was I was trying to record the podcast.

I was trying to film, I was trying to do [00:29:00] social media. I was also trying to create new contacts, like two months down the line and set up those stories. There was also mitigating a planet for what was going on around me, where I was. And that’s, that’s tough. You know, there’s a reason why production teams in television are as big as they are.

And it’s also the reason why professional filmmakers do what they do. I think everybody thinks that they can be a filmmaker now that they have a camera on their phone and they can do Instagram. But the difference between doing a bit of Instagram on your phone and making a proper film is quite fast.

And the difference between. Being an expedition leader or someone with, you know, Know, I don’t mean it in a disparaging way. And talk about that sort of self-centered drive or focus that a guy like a guy, like level or NIMS or, Al Humphreys habit, audited or Leon McCarran or PIP Stewart. Have in order to do the things they want to do to then, come away from that and have the ability [00:30:00] to oversee it is important.

I think one thing that’s really important at the moment is actually to get much more diversity in storytelling. I think the idea of, people go off and doing tough adventures is just like, I’m just a bit bored of it. Really. I think what’s been really good over the last year or two is to have some really.

well back a bit further than that, it’s just not been, raised. One of for stories is diversity in storytelling and storytellers, both ethnic diversity and gender diversity. One of the best books I’ve read in the last few years is miniature Roger twos around India in 80 trains. So. militia is Porter racer, the UK, her parents from India.

And she wrote a book about traveling around India on trains. It was the first book first proper travel book. I’d read by a British Asian, a proper travel writer writing about it rather than a TV presenter writing about a travel series they’ve done in India. [00:31:00] And I remember when I went traveling around India in 2001 to learn a bit about my heritage, trying to find.

Books that connected with me resonated with me. There were none, you know, there were books by, white male orphans. And there was nothing by British Indian about regarding India over the years. Afterwards, as I started to do more research about India, the best books I found were books by Indians about India, rather than books by white English, people about India.

And I think when we think about the storytelling that we want to hear more of at the moment, the great thing about increasing diversity, whether that’s ethnic or gender. Different insights. You get different types of storytelling. You hear people traveling to these places with empathy and insight and understanding rather than observational entertainment.

And I think that is a very important element. Okay. So Ash, [00:32:00] this is the part of the show where we are asked the same five questions to every guest that comes on the show with the first one being. What’s the one thing. That you miss or crave from home when you’re out or doing your sort of adventures.

Pint of beer is something that I used to miss a lot, because a few years ago you just couldn’t get pints of beer anywhere other than England, I think a craft beer has become a thing across the world. So, it’s nice. And a bit of a shame that when you go to anywhere in the world now they’ll tell you that they have an amazing craft brewery scene.

You’ve just got, you’ve just. Got pups. that used to be something I miss an awful lot. I think a cup of tea is a bit of cliche, so I probably wouldn’t really say that. you know, I go to the gym. I’m not really a gym buddy, but I think having that time that you just go and. [00:33:00] Workout and have that time to yourself.

I find it quite meditative. I do a lot of, have to do a lot of physio stuff all my years of destroying myself, playing rugby, largely that I find it quite a meditative experience. And you just don’t do that when you’re in the very deep divisions or, or even just travel writing, you don’t tend to make the time for it.

So oddly enough, I think that might be the one thing that I miss the most. Yeah. I’ve certainly missed, the gym in the sort of locked down era. I, yeah, I used to sort of go when I’m back in the UK sort of every day or every other day, at least. And suddenly now I’m resorting to the park and sort of running around and doing chin-ups on trees and on bars, wherever I can see them.

So yeah, I have to say it’s definitely one thing I certainly miss. Yeah. There’s not that many other things that we use to really, ground ourselves to the now and our physical experience. I think that’s quite a good one. Yeah. [00:34:00] did you have a sort of favorite adventure book? I think that the books that really triggered me on adventures.

Yeah, Lord of the rings is an amazing book. I think it has lots of flaws, particularly the lack of female characters, but the concept of adventure and the stories that both Bilbo and Frodo go through the archetypes of Joseph Campbell’s, the hero’s journey. And. They’re just brilliant books, fill you with, wonder about what is out there, where the wild things are is another great one.

But in terms of, you know, books that I think are great to read, I think Manisha’s book around enduring 80 trains is quite, a group of people that would read something quite different. Isn’t about physical audio, but it is about. A [00:35:00] journey and a person’s journey through it. also because it adds, a whole new insight that you just don’t often get in most travel books.

yeah. Where the wild things are. I think that was probably a really good entry level for nice. And what about an inspirational figure growing up? Inspirational figures for me growing up, where were captain Jean-Luc Picard and Catherine Benjamin, Cisco, the, captain of the USS enterprise D and the commodity of deep space nine and later captain of the USS defined.

So I think what was really interesting about that is, Picard like a real humanity, empathy, and diplomacy and understanding of other cultures. And I think obviously the, you know, the archetypes from a science fiction show, but. If you think about the amount of time that you spend with TV characters, if you read into a program they’re as much of an inspiration as anybody for the real world.

And I [00:36:00] think the qualities and characteristics of those people can really influence you. And so the, the characteristics, characteristics that I learned from them around empathy, and tolerance, I think a really important when you’re out traveling the world, we’re under seeing other cultures as weird.

You understand. They just come from a different paradigm. Yeah. I, I completely agree with that. And what is your favorite quote or motivational quotes? quite knew that I, myself, I think that Socrates, Socrates, Plato, I think that’s where it comes from. So crazy. I think it’s Socratic. Yeah. So I think it’s really difficult to know yourself.

You know, what motivates you? What inspires you? What troubles you? What brings out the best in you? What brings out the worst in you? It’s quite hard to know [00:37:00] that sort of, a priority and I think you kind of. I think one of the good things about travel and one of the good things about challenging yourself as you slowly start to develop an awareness and insights into those things.

Okay. And a lot of people listening are always keen to go on these sort of grand adventures. What’s the one thing you would recommend them to get started? Oh, John I’ll, I’ll cheat a bit here. I think, when you were trying to find. A reason to go on, adventures. I went to the outdoors or do something, well, always, always starts off don’t over do it too big, but I think the key thing to get you outside, it’s something that draws you there.

So I think, the three rules, I like to tell people when they’re going traveling so that you don’t just spend all your time looking at your phone or thinking about bars and food. So the first one is to go for your hobbies. So when I went to Australia, New Zealand in 2006, seven, I went. To ride horses. I went to play [00:38:00] rugby and I went to, Ski now I was terrible at all of those things, but it, when I went there, it took me into those places and I had an amazing time and became much more a part of the local communities than if I hadn’t gone to do those things and became good enough happened to not always fall off resources.

and sometimes I made a few tackles in front of me. And then the second one is to go for, your inspirations or the stories or people that interest you. So in 2015, I went. Traveling around Eastern Albania out towards Macedonia to follow in the footsteps of a guy called Edmund Trotsky Davies. He was a SOE British special forces guy who was there during the war and got a magical captured by the Germans and the Albanian collaborators.

So it’s following that story, which took me on an amazing adventure. And then the other one is to hunt for the unexpected. So whenever you go places, think what is. Different what is not just cliched here. So in [00:39:00] Uganda, in 2014, when I was with Lev, one of the things that I noticed was a massive proportion of people wearing awesome shirts.

A very might also have not been a good team for quite a long time, although they did win the FAA cup last year. Why ask them friends tells me now I don’t really care for football, a huge amount. I like watching entertaining football, but I don’t care. I don’t really follow any of the teams, but I need this.

This was like a disproportionate amount of people in ASAM shirts. So that’s unusual. that gave me a reason to communicate with people. And I think it’s really easy to go to places and see them as orient is seen through this orientalist lens and see them as foreign and interesting. And it’s good to get in touch with the culture of Uganda.

what’s authentic here. You know, there are people who have lives and who, Have the similar dreams, aspirations and interests as you and I, sometimes identical interests when it comes to football. And I discovered the extraordinarily passionate about football [00:40:00] and the reason they love arsenal is because when the premier league became an international sporting fixture and transmitted to a Uganda, Also where, what are the leading team to the premier league?

And they also had a lot of black players in their team at that time. Like Saul, Campbell, Kanu, Vieira, Sierra Ray, I think was finishing off his career there. So. That is why they love arsenal. And that legacy is carried on through, in the place like Uganda. so that scan to talk to them about and reveal something that not many people would have said after coming back from Uganda.

So hunt for the unexpected, follow your hobbies and follow your heroes and those interests. Yeah, football was definitely one of these things, no matter where you go in the world, just kicking a sort of bull around or talking about the premier league, which as you say is a worldwide brand. It’s just so easy and people love to talk about it and get so passionate about it too.

Well, I think it’s really important. It’s not just talk [00:41:00] about the premier league, dig into it about what what’s behind this, you know? Oh, you guys have awesome. Cool. But what was amazing was why do you love Arsalan? Why Austin. and their knowledge was incredible. They knew which linesmen Hertz had been more or less prejudice towards arsenal in the previous seasons.

But that level of detail, if you go into that kind of stuff, you really getting somewhere rather than sticking with the normal, boring, not boring, but the normal thing, which is, Oh, Whoa, you love, I dunno. I don’t know if there’s any one good at our site anymore, you know, so if you use those entry points to dig deeper, then you really start to, you know, look under those rocks of interest because I, I, well, I mean, I could talk about football for hours and hours, but yeah, it is that sort of fascination in Africa, which football is just sort of exploded and world cup in 2010 in South Africa, which was the first African.

Country to host the world [00:42:00] cup also exploded the sport as well. We’ve gone out and Senegal, I think in 20 2002, or see going for I’ll I’ll I’ll try. I have no idea about football, and Ash, how, people listening, how can, how can we follow your journeys and adventures in the future? I put stuff up on my website, intermittently www dot Ash, bhardwaj.com.

That’s B H a R D w H, but the easiest one is probably on Twitter and Instagram. And they’re both at Ash Bhardwaj, Ash, B H a I D w a J but Pepperdine are about to launch the first mile, which is our new podcast. So what I would love everybody to do is. Search for the first of all on Spotify or Apple podcasts, subscribe like, and rate it and give us five [00:43:00] stars.

So now if you, if you jump on that and follow that, that’d probably be the best way to find out what Pepperdine we’re up to right now. and that that’s where I’d often would go the first one. Amazing Ash, thank you so much for coming on today. And guys go check out his Instagram, Twitter, and website.

Thank you very much.

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