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Harrison Carter (Adventurer)

Harrison Carter is an Adventurer and Reptile Conservationist who has travelled around the world studying snakes and other reptiles. His adventures have recently taken him to Guyana on a month expedition looking at all kinds of snakes.

The team he took travelled through dense rainforest in unforgiving terrain, so bad that his colleague had to be sent home early. The rainforest is a harsh environment and today on the podcast Harrison Carter tells all about his journey and what his future expeditions may hold.

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Transcript of our Conversation

Harrison Carter

[00:00:00] Harrison Carter: My next guest is an adventurer and reptile conservationist. He has some incredible stories today on the podcast. And today we talk quite a lot about his amazing expedition down in Guyana, where he was out in the Amazon rain forest one month looking and studying reptiles and specifically snakes on the Pocus day.

We talk about snakes and how he wants to sort of change people’s perceptions and make sure that snakes and humans can coexist in the future. So I am delighted to introduce Harrison Carter to the podcast. Thanks, John. Thanks so much for having me on it’s really nice to get on and have a chance to talk about the journey and something that for me has been quite a long time in the making.

So let’s have a quick chat. Well, it sounds like quite an incredible journey. You are a reptile, conservationist and adventurer, and a couple of years back, you were out in Guyana. In the jungle during this incredible trip [00:01:00] before we get into that specific trip, let’s talk about how. Because most people, especially when I sort of found you and looked at your Instagram and saw the huge amount of pictures with you and snakes would probably freak most people out.

But for you, this is what you love to do and say, how did it all start? No, that’s the, I think that’s the question that everyone who works in snakes gets asked first, like, how did you get started in this or what’s wrong with you or both? I think, I think for me growing up, always around wildlife in the countryside and stuff, like I knew that animals were going to play a really huge part in my life.

But I’ve always been attracted to different things. And for me that was scales and I think, you know, snakes particularly interesting for me. I, I still find it fascinating that you know, something with no ears, no arms, no legs can be so deadly and so effective at kind of killing things. [00:02:00] I mean, they’re obviously really Pressy.

I think that snakes are actually. H a huge animal taboo in, in kind of societies, we have it now. I mean, they’re embedded in like our social language, snake, you know, someone who’s a snake or whatever, it’s, it’s a common discussion point equally. There are on all modes of our fashion clothes. They just, future range, features snakes all over.

It is the thing that is all around us divides opinion. And I’m not, I’m not sure we talk about them enough. And for other reasons, it, we can go on to later that there was having a real significant impact in terms of snakebites across the world. So, yeah, I think there’s an awful lot though. And I think there was, there was a difference from what everyone else was interested in, this kind of took me down that path.

And then also international travel, which really stapled that passion into something that was possible. And I think once you actually get close to an animal and once you, you can see it up front and have an interaction with something. It will embed something [00:03:00] in you different to any kind of good photo or image was the experience when you’re actually there.

It just hits you and makes it impossible to forget. I think ’cause, you’re, you’re from the UK and UK, I would say, you know, it doesn’t have many snakes running around, running around is probably not the right word to describe them. So in terms of your younger years, when you were sort of get into it, was it sort of traveling abroad or was it just sort of looking at them in books and on TV?

Was it that sort of path that sort of took you down in this sort of love affair with. Yeah. I mean, I think if you are growing up in the UK and interested in reptiles and people will say, and rightly say to the UK has a fantastic range of reptiles, which we do. But they are not as cool as exotic reptiles for me.

[00:04:00] They’re not as medically significant. They’re maybe not as Presley almost well as diverse or as big or as a very small subset. And so yes, that has been my charter trying to pick and catch a thousand grass snakes or common adders, which are the UCAS, any venomous snake. Yes. Our, that number’s next, quite significant.

Like, absolutely. It’s the only animal I think that’s put Steve back and hospital is a UK common either. So they, they really are interesting in terms of how potentially significant they can be. But. In terms of what state, my passion. It, it wasn’t actually domestic reptiles at all. I think like most of us, we grew up watching really great personalities on television.

So the likes of Steve-O and even a bit more theatrical and the Austin Stevens, south African guy, and of course, UK, we have Marco Shay who remains a bit of an idol to me now. And it’s doing more kind of purposeful hyper, hyper logical work [00:05:00] in his, in his current position university wolves.

So it was really television. I think which captured captured me as a child. I think most children are captured by that. And then as I got a little bit older, maybe. I don’t know, six to six to 10 books became more relevant. And of course not literature is such more great photos and imagery, books snakes.

I mean, for example, what there’s one photo. So in a, in a book that I’ve got at home I think it’s one of Mark’s original snakes of the world books. And there’s a picture in the of a west African Gulbuddin Viper. I don’t know whether you’ve seen one of these before John, but essentially they’re this massive Viper and species and the longest fangs of any snake in the world.

They’re sort of, they can get up to sort of seven foot, six foot long, massively fast. They have a head like a Labrador and there’s this food. So in this kind of swamp land in, in Western Africa, I can just looking at this photo and thinking like, [00:06:00] there’s no way that’s actually an animal that, that, that just looks so uncomparable.

And I have nothing to position that against. And I think that that sparked a real energy sparked kind of rope. I haven’t assumed one. Yeah, it’s kind of on the bucket list, but it sparked a lot of other travel quite a poignant moment as well. I mean, obviously to work with snakes, it’s important to point out that you don’t have to handle them.

In fact, some of the most effective kind of people that I’ve ever seen working with snakes, very rarely get that hands-on just through understanding the body language of the snake, you can position it in a way. And so that, you know, even if you’re working with one of the world’s most deadly snakes, it’s completely safe.

You don’t actually have to get that close, but you know, when you’re a child, I think people want. You know, feel more of a real connection to something. And I, you know, I, I do like I’m handling, handling the snakes in a safe way, but of course I can’t wait to get my kind of hands on and feel that relationship.

And when I was, I think, nine, I went [00:07:00] to my parents who are not really animal people. They definitely aren’t familiar with reptiles. And I said, well, you know, guys, I really either want my first name or I want a PlayStation. And, and there was so against me having a PlayStation, they bought me my first name.

I think they thought it was a bit of a fad, oh, this will happen for a few years. It’s a thing. And then it’ll move on. You know, and then 14 years later on site talking to you about following a career and talking about snake conservation and human snake conflict. So maybe not a fat after all. Well, great fat as it is.

And so with with this adventure that you did, I suppose, because you’re still at university studying, was it very much. This trip was planned for when you’re at school, in terms of you had this idea and you were keen to pursue, or was this something sort of done through the university? I think for me, I guess [00:08:00] just closing the gap between 10 and where I was taking those strip, which was at the end of my undergraduate degree university of York, I had been amazingly lucky to, to kind of be exposed a lot of international travel in the tropics to work with snakes.

And I think that at the risk of maybe overstepping the mark, there are always opportunities to go and work with animals. There are always raised him from my perspective of maybe raising the funds to go, whether it’s through amazing grants or whatever it may be. For me, I got very lucky, you know, hands up.

I have people in my life that were traveling to places like that, like a tag along and learn from. And so by the age of. 21 I’ve been to shoreline corrupt, large number of times, which is obviously what I learned most of my venomous snake interaction skills. And then from that, I use that as a chance to get to Bali and work on [00:09:00] conserving king cobras in Bali for a good period of time with the body repertoire rescue and then manage the, kind of the capture and release of these large African rock pipe in South Africa with Canungra reptile censored, and all of these things are fascinating to me.

And I was building up in my mind experience with not just different species, because that is one thing whenever you’re dealing with snakes, it’s only ever a problem because they meet humans. So actually you have to really consider how are you working with the human as well. And I, speaking of different cultural skillsets The big area, the obvious area for me to go to being the Amazon, you know, about how cool snakes and reptiles are there in general.

And I’d never been to south America. And I’ve been really slaving away for my undergrad. My, my parents never went to university. And so when I, when I went to uni, I was kind of so concerned that I would be the world’s biggest failure that I ended up just working really, really hard and kind of putting that above social things.

I still played hockey and had fallen and one talents, but it was, it was a work thing. And so when I got to the end [00:10:00] of my three years, I was thinking, well, what kind of celebration could I have, what kind of trip can I do to Christen the end of the first period of, of kind of my academic career in that sense.

And for me, it was going to the Amazon in some shape or form, and I’m going, I don’t want to just go and do a trip that everyone else would do because no, one’s really gonna care about snakes and this approach, I guess it’s important to bring in my previous experience because I developed a real level of.

Confidence really arrogance in terms of, I know what I need to go and how I need to get there to have an experience that I actually want. And I can remember going kind of searching up Guyana as being the least travel company in south America. It has some of the most untouched jungle part of the guy on a shoe or like a real, this, this is the place to go and find cool stuff.

And I was looking at, are there any cool pre-planned trips, adventure setup or whatever? I just couldn’t find any that I thought were interesting to me. [00:11:00] Cause it’s expensive to go and it was gonna be like a once of a lifetime. And I’ve also started down the barrel of going back to work in London as a management consultant.

So it was a bit of like I really want to make a special trip that I’ve, that I, if it doesn’t all work out that I’ll remember forever. And I can remember just going to the local cafe, printing out a map of Guyana and circling things and just drawing lines between bits that I wanted to go and do different habitats, different environments, different people, different species targets.

And that’s kind of how the, how the trip went up. It was very much a read of, I think the only travel guide written in Ghana is still the last published date was 2014 or something. So that’s, you know, amazingly out of date. So like emailing all emails would that automatic replies on men, there’s no phones.

And it was just ultimately a lot of human trust. And I guess being relevant I remember when we’re thinking about traveling through, going on and how you’d make it through all of these red pens. Initially, we thought, well, we’ll just run some kind of a four by four and just drive it. [00:12:00] And then a bit more reading, you realize actually that road and wet season is, is partially a river.

So by us not going to be a thing that’s not possible. So immediately you’re like, well, I’m I going to have to hire a plane? Like, what does that look like? Because you know, in the way that we think about hiring a plane, that’s only the bond bill that would do that. How does a union student in the airplane turns out and go, I’m wonder it’s like hiring a plane is the least fun thing that you did that day.

Like you just call up a guy and said, I want to get here. And he’s like, we fly on ABC dates. The price is X, Y, Z book it and go. So there’s a lot of bucket and go kind of, I guess, energy there as well. Well, and this was, this was your first big sort of adventure into the sort of jungle and the jungles, like an incredibly hostile sort of place at times, especially for the sort of uninitiated or the unprepared.

How did you sort of prepare for it? What it was, it was a weird one [00:13:00] for me, because I felt like with years spent kind of insurance, shoreline jungle with all the news jungles. I was kind of aware I use that kind of really honestly, because I don’t think anyone can say. I’ve been to one jungle. I can do them all.

I think if you’re lucky enough to have jungle experience, you know, that they’re all unique. The time of year makes them unique. Their habitat makes them unique, the different plants and the way that you find value in a jungle, which is everywhere is unique. But my, my real preparations didn’t really think about me.

I also took for the first two weeks when I best friends from university and he’d only ever been on holiday, kind of in central Europe with his family before. And I remember him saying, oh, I really want to come on the trip. And I’m staying tomorrow. You know, I promise you that for the first two weeks of the trip was what he stayed for.

And I went deeper and he went home, you know, you’ll, you’ll see amazing things. This will be. Proper trip. But here’s a, here’s a list of things to buy and has left this kind of, you know, [00:14:00] realities that are going to happen. And so most of my thoughts were about how I can plan it for well, how, like how we can kind of make it fun, how it can make it importantly, make it safe.

And I think when you’re thinking about trips, sort of like this really remote, you’re not near hospitals as you are two, three days away. It’s not about, oh, I’ve fallen over. I’ve cut myself. I don’t want it guys. I’ll just go back and I’ll get myself sorted. Cause that’s just not how it works. In reality, you’re ultimately stopping a, a proper trip.

You’re stopping an expedition, so it’s selfish to get injured essentially. So there was so much planning around how we could bubble, wrap everyone ultimately on this trip, which we were surrounded by pointy things, thinking things and biting things and moved from that. So I had an amazing moment of realization when actually I landed in Guyana and I plan to do this documentary as a challenge to credentialize myself, to do a career.

Something I really cared about, which was what’s ultimately storytelling [00:15:00] about the snakes and about their environments. I realized that I had a new camera. I’d kind of figuring out what shutter speed and aperture was on the plane over a, I bought a new microphone that I hadn’t been plugged in. And I had even considered what I’d be like in the jungle.

I mean, things hit your head. Like, are you going to be any good. And I can remember holding the camera in front of my face, trying to do an opening segment for child artists felt like the world’s biggest asshole, you know, like you, you’re going somewhere as very, I mean, also I don’t really blend in, in the tropics, you know, I’m a white guy with red hair.

I am a tourist. There’s kind of no way of blending in feeling like a local. And so when you’re surrounded by local guys and girls who live in that environment, you’re talking about there, well, they were looking at you, like, what do you have to say about this place? Get us on the camera. And in many ways they’re right.

Actually. And I really tried to get them on camera as much as humanly possible, but whether it was embarrassment or, you know, [00:16:00] English speaking school that didn’t end up happening, but you do really have to think about what you want to achieve and your own skillset, like definitely ever look that improperly in the planning and the planning of others and have to just kind of whip through and learn through and make mistakes of which there were just many fortunately small, but many mistakes.

I think when you sort of start recording, you know, your trips and adventures and, you know put yourself in front of the camera, it’s incredibly difficult. And actually it takes so much practice. I remember first starting and, you know, I would spit, you know, I’m sure people are like, well, you’re terrible now, so I wouldn’t even worry about it.

But when I first started, I just remember looking at myself and I think I sent to a friend who’s like, my God just. You know, you’re here. And I was like, I, I think it was a trip across [00:17:00] Europe and I was sort of almost starving myself. So I wasn’t in the best frame of mind in terms of, if you’re hungry, you don’t exactly want to be like, Hey, I’m so excited to be here.

Cause you’re just hungry and just brings you straight down and I’m ready. You’re quite slightly depressed. And it’s just like, my God, you look just miserable. And I was like, well, I was kind of miserable. It was authentic, but that’s the thing it’s actually portraying that. And as you say, when you went out and it’s also knowing what you want to shoot.

Because otherwise you are just shooting for the sake of shooting thinking, oh, I’ll get that. And then I’ll get back to her. I mean, I still have so much footage from one of my trips and I was just shooting for the sake of shooting. And then unless you know exactly what the story, I mean, the story can change, but knowing exactly what story you want to set out, you will just constantly have your camera be like, oh, that looks cool.

Oh, that looks cool. But actually you are, what’s the [00:18:00] word you’re just shooting aimlessly. And then you get back. You’re like, Hmm, I don’t know what to do. Yeah, I think that’s that, that’s that phrase, isn’t it. I was kind of conscious about it when I went in the jungle called being a busy fool whereby you’re constantly shooting and constantly talking and it feels like, oh, I’m the man, but actually you, you kind of get nothing because you’re missing the point you to answering the question.

And it’s tough because you set your own question. So when you see something it’s amazing, it doesn’t fit your question. You’re thinking whether I can just shift it if I’m going to adapt it. And sometimes you can. And I think that’s probably a good thing, you know, like having a flexible scope where you can, something amazing pops out.

I mean, I hadn’t planned to find a harpy Eagle on the trip and we found one on week three. And so that became an interesting thing to talk about because it’s so incredibly rare. And if you have to tighter scope, then you miss that out. But to loosen people that national you’re talking about, like what was the point of the whole documentary?

And if I’m being really honest, I probably had a bit of that. I think most people probably even [00:19:00] professionals still have that. Because if, if you are being. Presenter, the producer, the director, the camera mom, and the dog’s body, you know, all of those hats, you’re just wearing too many. And all your ideas get blurred and mixed, and then you get frustrated and then you add in things like you say, I’m hungry.

I haven’t slept. I’m getting better. And by every single living thing in the jungle my mate, isn’t having a very good times. I’m miserable. I haven’t found any snakes. I’m staring down the barrel of the gun had been a complete failure. All these things happen, which make you just a bit a book.

That’s the, that’s the amazing bit. I think I about expeditions. It’s how, how kind of, well you deal with things going wrong and rolling with the punches. Cause you definitely do get hit in the face. Yeah, it’s very true because in the jungle you are going that sort of in 30 degree heat, almost a hundred percent humidity, and that brings up.

[00:20:00] Many problems in terms of not being able to dry your clothes and you get this sort of, I don’t know what the technical term is, but rot, incense, your skin is just constantly wet. So it starts to rot away in a sense, how did Wil and yourselves sort of deal with that for the two first, the two weeks that will and yourself?

Yeah, this is like this, this is a very direct question. I should probably go and chat well before this goes out, because it involved me probably embarrassing him and probably talking about an area of slight scuffle between both of us. But I guess there are a number of things to talk about here in a number of routes, important pieces.

So, number one, if you are traveling as to what other young, 20 year olds, both guide, doesn’t have to both go out there properly. More applicable. Like you both want to feel like you’re the expedition leader. And [00:21:00] it’s a bit of slot don’t tell me what to do because I’m my own Bubba. And I know that you’ve got all these plans, but I’ll, I’ll manage me and you manage yourself.

And you just can’t afford to do that really in the jungle. I know that we’ll have bad feet in any case. I is a big runner and so that his feet are an area of weakness for him when it comes to resilience over kind of performance. And for the first two weeks, we were traveling from the Northeast of the Southwest.

We went basically staying at research centers, one in the jungle one and and kind of the on the periphery of the jungle where the jungle make the Savannah. So a nice kind of hybrid habitat. In kind of the floodplains then down right into deep savannas. And we’re always staying somewhere with a, with a roof for the first two weeks.

And I think that it’s very easy to make a mistake that even though you feel like you’re in a home or you feel like you’re in the civilization, actually, if you zoom out, you’re in the middle of the jungle is in the mum built house. [00:22:00] And all of the rules apply that if you were also staying in the middle of the jungle, that I did two weeks later.

So powdering kind of armpits private areas, things that rub every night, feet critical, don’t do that. And you get splits and you can’t walk. If your feet go over and you have to go home, that’s kind of insure what happened to well after two weeks. And if you don’t, if you don’t do it, that kind of ruins the trip as well.

I mean, I think I answered the question a while ago which says, oh, who could do a general. Expedition, I’m kind of all that. Anyone can do it. I mean yeah, there’s a certain base level of fitness requires a base level of mental resilience requires a base level interest required and then the time available, which sounds silly, but I think there’s actually amazingly relevant because it takes so long to plan one of these things that it properly.

But for me, what, why would you want to go and do this if you didn’t really love it? You know, I mean like the jungle is a horrible place to be if you don’t want to be there. [00:23:00] And it’s my favorite kind of environment on earth, but unless I love snakes, I wouldn’t be there, but I’ll be by the beach.

Like you joking. I it’s fucking horrible. So unless you’ve got a real reason why I can’t think of anywhere, worse to be, and I think, you know, with us going through that early stage in terms of managing what the environment will do to you. There was a couple of like brothers who fight syndrome going on.

But previous experience for me, I knew, I knew the reality is even if you don’t, your skin doesn’t feel that work, you follow the same procedure about through keep really, really clean. And I think that’s another misnomer about the jungle plus, oh, you must be dirty the whole time. And like in many ways you are like in many ways you’re completely filthy.

But in other ways, you know, the importance of keeping clean is absolutely paramount. You know, if, if you’ve got a cut and you are crawling with crap, then you’re in big, big trouble. Cause infection just happens at a cataclysmically faster rate than it would do as normal. [00:24:00] And mosquito bites, it must be to stop biting your feet and they come red raw.

You combine that with kind of loose skin and splitting and you combine that again with like muddy ground and maybe your boots start, you know, leaking a bit. I mean, it sounds like hell, doesn’t it really? But the truth is if you, if you prepare yourself properly, it’s as amazing, fun, amazing fun. Where do I sign up

exactly at the end of a very short queue, I think is the answer to that. Yeah. Wow. And so we’ll had to sort of go after the sort of two weeks by choice. Yeah, w we’ll only had two weeks of a break from work and he’s back in London. Again, I am banking as I was working in banking and he was always going home after two weeks, but I think in reality [00:25:00] I think he was kind of done.

He, I don’t think could have gone two more weeks. Without any of the comfort properly into the Bush for the, for the next two weeks, we just had hammer. We didn’t take any food, a water. It was just, you know, pure survival stuff. And everything that you learned in the first two weeks became amazingly real.

There’s nobody who could have done that. You’d have to gone home his feet. You couldn’t walk towards the end and he’s missing out on amazing trips. I’m missing out on nighttime. Snake walks early mornings. Nate walks afternoons, snake walks. If you can get a theme, that’s makes an important trip, but quite a few snakes.

Yeah, quite a few. But yeah, he, he was always going to go home, but would have had to have gone home anyway. So in Guyana, in the jungle, I think for people listening, what sort of reptiles were you seeing? You know, you, you hear about these giant anacondas these Goliath tri Angeles, [00:26:00] which are horrendous when you see them.

I mean, they are so big and there are thing of nightmares what was sort of insects and reptiles, where you’ve seen on a daily basis. Well, I think this is a really important point because I think people talk about the Amazon on their thing. Well, as soon as you go in, you’ll see all the stuff. And the truth is I spent the month turning over every single rock, every leaf, shimmering up every tree and found relatively little.

And I think there are a number of reasons for this, like the first being sensationalism of the jungle. I think we’re very good at that. You know, I’m kind of in the west in terms of, if you go into the jungle, there’s always massive spiders or massive snakes. And do they live in the yes, they do green Anaconda.

You know, my main reason for going was to find the world’s heaviest bodied, snake Goliath, birding, trench that I wanted to find whilst biggest tarnish. Yeah. A hundred percent. That’d be amazing. And actually amazingly Dov style as well, if you can position your [00:27:00] interaction properly a whole host of other snakes, like somehow south America’s most deadly snake.

The fertile Lance, I mean, fortunately, ironically, but fortunately found a few of those, which was amazing. Then obviously the Bushmaster, I mean, biggest snake in the Western hemisphere and they call it the silent death in the jungle, because if you get hit by one of those, you’re not getting hit by anything else.

And a whole host of other things, then bullet ants, I mean, Number one on the lesser, how to ruin your day has been bitten on the ass by, but no one wants that to happen. So, so there are a whole, whole host of things, but I think the truth is, and one thing that I’m really keen to communicate is you can go in for jungle out.

You see none of these things. And whilst trying to look for them I was absolutely forced to go in the worst time of year to find anything cool, which is wet season. So my uni degree finished in may, may June time. And I was starting a job as management consultants in London, in September, which left me with approximately three months [00:28:00] to try and film something that could hopefully change my career and, and realize a dream of talking about this weird stuff.

So you’re pigeonholed into a three month window where it’s all rain and when it’s all, and it’s tougher for you to be there because it’s miserable. All the ground is muddy. Infection, risks are much higher. The water is dirtier. Things are harder to find because if you think about. The way that the jungle book has kind of, I guess, in one way, very obvious the other one quite counter-intuitive if it lots of water you thinking everything’s going to be out, especially from a repertoire perspective, being active, maybe there’s there’s breeding going on.

Maybe there’s a lot more frogs around. And so that would encourage predators to be a bit more active towards frogs. But the, the kind of the truth is it’s not the Amazon, which is all kind of fairly low level where we, where if water is rising, then the habitat for the things you’re looking for is increasing.

And [00:29:00] so there is a bigger space with which these same animals can live and it’s becomes harder and harder to find them. Cause they just live all over the place. By contrast, during the dry season where, you know, water is the single source of life in the jungle, things will congregate to the water. You don’t have to look for them.

You look for the big water and then wait for them to turn up. And it definitely happens. So you can go into the jungle and never find, never find a thing. If you’re really lucky you can come across some of the world’s most amazing snakes which definitely the reason why we went there got incredible.

We had Lucy shepherd on the podcast and when she was describing about Bushmaster snakes, it was her sort of experience of the. You could just tell the sort of fear that she had when she heard that sort of whistling sound coming on. It was one of complete fear and just the way that she described it, that [00:30:00] whistling sound was just on another level and trips.

That’s the, that’s the critical piece. If you’re bitten by a snake in the jungle and it’s, you know, the Bushmaster or fertile lands and that the venom bite it, cats you in flashed and that’s the end definitely of the trip and, you know, with potentially much more significant implications for life, of course.

And I mean, we were really unlucky quote unquote to not find a Bushmaster cause I, I looked high and low, mostly low being terrestrial snakes, but high and low in the active sense. I think this is kind of where it’s interesting being in a jungle expedition space, but also being a snake guy, is you, you, in some ways it’s usually beneficial because all of the fear around snakes, you can, you can manage.

I mean, if snakes wanted to buy a task, but will be dead [00:31:00] in, in, in short, I mean, India, wouldn’t be a thing. There’s so many snakes there and if they all have, they’re all, they’re automatically significant. Srilanka, wouldn’t be a thing. There’s no antivenom really in Sri Lanka. I mean, snakes don’t want to.

Kill humans, you know, they can’t eat us. So what’s the point. So they, they will look to hide from us at every given opportunity. Now, of course, in the jungle, it’s slightly different where you are all going right to their habitat. You’re, you’re walking through all of that spaces. And, and I think the truth is what, what is what will said to me when he first came to the jungle, he was like, I can’t believe how dirty it is.

Like, you know, I think Western production of the jungle is that the, the jungle floor is, is quite easy to see in comparison to where the trees and the bushes start. But definitely in west is, and there’s a good two for the foliage. And the truth is sneaks like the borough. They get preyed on a lot by birds.

And so you could be walking through a big open space foliage, you walk through nice little gap and then it could be a Bushmaster in there and it hits you on the foot. And there’s no [00:32:00] matter how good you are with snakes, there’s no way of protecting it. So I, I can totally understand. Lucy’s kind of.

I guess trepidation about coming into conflict with a Bushmaster and it’s something I hadn’t really considered because we had a couple of guides or I had a couple of guides to help carry bags and support on the trip for the last two weeks. And we made it really clear at the start of the trip, but the reason why I was there was to go and find snakes.

And the number one we’re in the jungle is no one goes alone to do stuff because you get lost. If you get lost in the jungle. I mean, I wouldn’t wish on anyone to be perfectly honest. I think everyone who lives there has a period of being lost for a few days. And oftentimes it doesn’t end very well.

Sometimes it, you know, you come back to the, or you never ever do it again. And so when we were out in the jungle and I wanted to go out on late night, snake walks or early, early mornings networks, because most of the cool stuff there is not. So that’s really how you might find target [00:33:00] species like green Anaconda, fertile lands Bushmaster the guys were, you know, really hesitant to actually come.

They’re like, I don’t want to go, I want to stay here. We’ll keep looking at the fire or we’ll keep look at the camp or whatever. And I found myself in a really weird place where at the time, and I think it’s important to reflect on this. Like no food, no water haven’t found too much pissed off, hungry, tired, all the rest of it.

I thought I was getting really, really frustrated is the honest truth. And I wasn’t the best version of myself. I’d normally go and quite a holistic thinker and consider it for people. Which I think is really important for jungle expedition in fact could be more so than any other kind, but I mean that the tension was building so much.

But then I remember when we had this particular one night where we were out on the water because one thing that you can find in wet season quite well are the arboreal snake. So it was nice to live in the trees. So your Amazon tree bow has been. Probably the number [00:34:00] one snake that we found on the trip, you guarantee a siting every single night, they’re non venomous, that they’re between three and six foot, fairly skinny, nice, great big tea, which is fascinating to have a look at.

And there are some photos that I can share off or to those teeth. We were along on the river, we had not Alemanian boats and we’re kind of chugging along. We saw a big snake in the tree. I said, let’s pull it here. I’ll just quickly get it down and have a quick look. And I think I sort of had a bit of a busted jaw, so I wanted to go and see what we could just do something to maybe help a little bit would it, what would the snake and it was amazingly defensive.

We’re kind of really biting was unhappy. This is so normal for kind of most snakes that you might find at night, they’re out hunting, you coming up and you got a big tort jar. And it’s all, I mean, imagine it’d be most terrifying thing if you’re a snake, but you can commonly interact with them.

And we have this good exposure. I can’t be in trouble with a snake comedy, pulled it off calmly had it behind the head cause it was distressing for the [00:35:00] snake to have been free handled. And all the guys were on the boat. The two, you know, Damien and Harry, who were the members, the two guides. And when they saw that interaction and then they saw the snake relax because we are all relaxed and then they had a nice, you know, I don’t even hold the snake.

We spoke about the snake. We spoke about what it means to their culture. What, you know, why I was interested in that. We had a complete momentum. In the whole trip it seemed like suddenly they were interested in finding more. And I couldn’t tell whether that was because they suddenly had confidence in me.

Which is a thing I think, you know, there must be lots of people coming in from the UK or the us, or non-native people with reckoning there, you know, good snake people and they see where it’s a little bit spooky and it’s a bit you know non-com and unplanned, but. For us think like that they saw that in me that it was going to work well that we had a calm and consistent approach to [00:36:00] interacting with potentially dangerous animals.

Or whether it was the crew that actually never seen one or wanted to see one up close in you know, with a purpose of just understanding and interacting with. But after that it was like, I couldn’t keep them down. I mean, it was, oh, we think we might have better luck if we maybe go this way up the river.

And I’m thinking, yes, energy, like a hundred percent, let’s go. I tried to hold them back whenever I found a snake, they were getting so close that before I said, well, you can come a bit closer and this they’re like 10 meters away. You can come back close to kind of see and learn from the specifics. And towards the end, it was like, well guys, you’re quite close.

Like these things do go from zero to a hundred very quickly. And I think that was, that was great for me because yes, we, that helped us find snakes. More people make lighter work, but I mean, even irrespective of the project. I care about breaking down misconceptions around snakes. And I think maybe that’s quite easy to do people in the [00:37:00] UK who don’t face a very real and very negative interaction with snake often quite regularly.

But if you can change the opinion of someone who, I mean, as I found out later maybe lost their life to a snake bite and people in the village die annually from snake bites. If you can change their opinion or at least spark an interest, or, you know, maybe challenge an assumption, I mean, you, that speaks to real power.

And that’s something that, you know, I, I won’t forget that interaction and I think that’s really, what’s inspiring a lot of the work that I’m doing now and the look that I’m hoping to do going forward. Yeah. It’s sort of giving them an under giving people an understanding of, of what you do really.

And that’s why it sort of matters, say much of, because I imagine people listening to this podcast, I would probably say. 50%, probably more would be terrified if they saw a snake come into their [00:38:00] house. In fact, I’d say it’s way higher. Yeah. I reckon that’s the way. I think that’s the fun thing about snakes is cause I would look at that exam question as a hugely positive thing.

Because if you’re afraid of something or if you’re intra, you know, excited by something, snakes have a unique ability to interest people. I mean, I think that it’s quite rare that you’d find someone impartial to snakes, you know, they’re either on one camp or the other and if you’re on one camp or the other, then you are exerting feeling towards a thing.

So kind of talking about them I think it’s quite great in terms of getting an audience. I mean, number of times I’m at dinner and we’ll end up talking about snakes because even if people are terrified or really interested like it sparks conversation and people find it interesting. And in terms of the state coming into your house, I think had probably a scary actually.

I think like wondering is the kind of working with snakes that I [00:39:00] quite enjoy. I, maybe this actually goes back to before, so I’ll kind of go slightly off, off tranche and talk something slightly different. But when I was learning about how to interact with snakes and Sri Lanka kind of dealing with snakes, there is not like a, a job.

Isn’t a single person who would set up a shop and go and do a thing. It’s like an obligation per region. The family takes on the ownership of of managing capturing of snakes from someone’s house or from their farm lands. And it’s a very tight community. It’s passed down generally from father to son and so forth.

And so I went to this local. Sort of, they call them snake doctors, but I mean, essentially it’s like your local snake conservationist. And I said, listen, I’m really interested in learning more about handling these snakes. And of course you, you say things like that when you’re younger, because you, you want to get the cool photos.

So, I mean, if you search hard enough on my Instagram that are photos, I’m not particularly proud of in terms of putting out there for the whole world to see [00:40:00] like handling Cobra, if we just your bare hands. I mean, when you’re young, it’s exciting and you’re pushing the limits and you’re pushing the boundaries, but you know, that might inspire reckless behavior and therefore expire, you know, inspire problems and that the opposite of what anyone wants to do the opposite of definitely what I want to do.

But I think when I went there and I said, I want to handle the snake. I was very quickly put in my place which was amazing. You had the, kind of the chance to do that. And he said, you know what? You’re not touching any snakes until you understand that before. I thought I did. I was on behavior. I mean, I, as you said, I’ve had snakes of my own, my whole life.

I’m a complete you know, addict in terms of watching interactions, whether it be YouTube or public documentary or film, or however, it’s trying to transcribe that, listen to that. If you’re going to do this here, you have to really switch on the body, but the body behavior and my favorite species of snake and the whole world is the spectacle Cobra, the true Cobra, nausea, nausea and [00:41:00] they have Diane Ally’s big sort of round peoples.

And that makes them interesting to work with because they have an extra sort of sense, as we all know that states have got generally bad eyesight and on a relative scale, that’s true. But some states have better eyesight than others. And in this case, these brown pupils they, they do pick up images and shadows and spark their attention.

So actually when, when you see. You know, someone like me picking up a venomous snake with their hands, you should look at it and say, this is probably coming from insecurity and it’s probably the wrong thing for them to be doing. But another takeaway would be was probably a reason why I did it actually was you can, you can manipulate their body language.

If you really understand their behavior, you can do this. It’s also, I think for me that the pinnacle of understanding a snake is when you can have a quote unquote safe interaction and that entirely reckless and dangerous fashion. And of course there are some states where you can kind of do that, [00:42:00] where then I might argue you shouldn’t do it with any, and then there are some which in my mind, you definitely shouldn’t do it with because they are amazingly unpredictable.

And that probably go for a long line of vibrant species, nocturnal, very erratic heat, sensing, pets. It is impossible to know exactly what they’re going to do, but within a certain scope, you can really see behavior. And so when kind of coming across these stakes in the jungle, flipping back to the application It makes the interaction really safe.

And if you can make the interaction really safe, but feel very real for people. I think that’s what inspires me perspective. And I, when talking about snakes, there’s often a lot of false information put out about snakes cause it’s it’s sort of myth based like snakes chasing you, which, which doesn’t happen really innocent in a very small rare subset of interactions.

Equally kind of I mean, people have a [00:43:00] whole list of states. I mean, from working in Africa, I think I’ve heard all of the local towns about snakes. But for me that the most important thing to kind of really pull out from kind of a snake interaction is not to really tell people which is really counter-intuitive.

Because if something is real for them, then it is real. In that sense. And I think where a lot of people in my shoes might go wrong and they’re much better than me at doing this. I’m sure, but I’d say, oh no, that’s not how to think about it. We think about it like this. And that has some value because you’re offering a different perspective, but the truth is if they really believe something, no matter how ridiculous it sounds to you, you have an obligation to treat that as real for me.

And so what I’ll try not to do is say, oh, that’s wrong on this stage. Think about it, but show them something which would lead them to suggest that their assumptions are incorrect. You know, don’t [00:44:00] tell them that it’s hot, take off your coat, just show them that it’s warm and not take it off by themselves.

I think, you know, to achieve real change that that’s where we have to sit. And that’s kind of what I was trying to show to Damien and Harry on the boat was, you know, you can think what you’d like about snakes, but here’s a case study that might force you to just at least think about what your assumptions are or bias.

Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s amazing. And as I say, for, for people listening, it’s been an incredible sort of story that you’ve sort of done over the years in trying to change sort of behavior and assumptions about snakes. It’s quite, it’s interesting because on two hands you could say either a big problem or not really an issue with tool.

You could say the for the number of next on planet the likelihood of having a bite or a fake interaction, there’s nylon zero. And that’s kind of true, you know no party wants the [00:45:00] interaction. You know, you’re not getting most people aren’t going out looking for them. So that’s generally fair.

On the other hand, of course if you happen to live in a rural community across the tropics, where I sneak them more likely to come into your house, even if it is unlikely, Size of audience, you are going to get a gross number and 130,000 people each year die of venomous snake bites. I mean, that’s so significant.

I mean, I remember looking at the news earlier this year with regards to coronavirus deaths. And I think we don’t, you know, the right action. Isn’t one, death is not just a single number. You know, the impacts are huge. Like I remember thinking in the UK where we’re having all these cases and deaths and it was getting to about 30,000 and politicians are talking about how this was the end of the world and all of our resources should be going into this to change it.

And they are right. And you know, what an amazing job, all of that was, but with 140,000 deaths happening each year and snakes and having no change been really been seen over the previous [00:46:00] years, I can’t help, but think that this is a ginormous neglected area of real importance. And of course, when people look at the snakes and they say, oh, well, super unlikely.

And that kills 130,000 people each year on the ground spectrum of a 7 billion population in the world, that’s quite insignia. Well, they’re also maybe not considering and some do, but generally don’t is the people that they tend to buy. It tend to be rural workers in fields. I tend to be the male of the house, which tends to be the breadwinner in the family structure.

Now, if that person is bitten by the snake and dies, that’s the no income coming in for their family, which has a thousand knock on effect, which have a huge emotional financial safety considerations. But even if that person survives, I mean, it is very rare for someone to survive without a lasting physical wound.

Maybe they lose a hand or they lose the use of a [00:47:00] hand. Maybe they. Whatever it’s that first or something, then maybe they then can’t work in the field and then losing income. And then all this stuff. I mean, and we’re in a wonderful position in the UK that we’re having so much attention on mental health.

And that’s a huge thing that I experienced really bad mental health and the jungle, which we can talk about in a sec. But you know, we’re at a level where we can really address those as significant concerns. We’re not even talking about the mental health implications from being bitten by a snake. I mean, I can only imagine, imagine going to work each day in a field where you don’t know every foot position you partake, where every hand position you take, that could be your last day.

And what if you actually survived a bite and you have to go back and work there at an exact same place with a new prevention kit. I cannot understand why people aren’t more interested in this and more kind of more keen to prevent it. And so I think that’s, that’s a big [00:48:00] level of interest for me and that’s, what’s driving a lot of the work and my master’s work next year is going to tackle exactly this insurance.

Yeah. I suppose, I suppose for most people it’s, it’s sort of based around where these countries, where the problem is because in quite a lot of countries like the UK, that probably isn’t so much of a problem. But in places like Sri Lanka, Guyana and where snakes are hugely prominent, then I suppose they probably need to tackle this more head on.

Yeah, definitely. So I agree with that and it, and it is country on country. And you know, it’s not the UK should be doing more to help. What is maybe a very specific country problem. But on the other hand as, as potential devil’s advocates that look at a country like Australia, you know, they have nine of the 10, most venomous snakes in the planet.

I think they’re registered about [00:49:00] one death per year, or maybe even less than that. I can’t get the statistics, but almost that they’ve completely fixed the problem of human snake interaction, which is still a huge crossover. And it’s because they have an incredible antivenom program, which is. A significant contributor to which is the let me see Australian reptile part.

I mean, unbelievable guys based in their Sydney, it was have amazing infrastructure airplanes, which will fly in someone being best. And by delivering a mistake in the middle of the desert and in central Australia. And there’s a load of work with regards to prevention and how to interact with snakes.

I mean, I think even Margot Robbie was talking about when she was young, having to deal with snakes, coming into a house with, you know, with her mum or something. And it was a humorous incident with a partner in the broom. But the point is, yes, maybe it’s a shrunken problem. Yes. Maybe it’s an India problem or Indonesia problem, or actually it’s the whole of an Asia problem because, or south American problem, but it is important for countries that have sustained.

[00:50:00] To, to share lessons learned. And it’s important even for countries like the UK, where we haven’t got a problem like this to offer a valuable outside perspective. I mean I’m British guy and I hope there are other British guys and girls watching this that you know, feel inspired to have a go at trying to do that bit and to hold it, to help help solving this.

You know, I really think that now wanting to beaches of, of how small the world is whether through technology is, is the potential for really cross national and cross capability solutionizing is, is really there. And it’s so important that we do that. And so yes, whilst it is maybe a national issue maybe an international response would be the real story.

Yeah, well, it’s been, it’s just been incredible listening to your stories and I can’t thank you enough for coming on and sort of tell us all about it. I mean, there are some [00:51:00] things, as you say, that you’ve brought up, that I had absolutely no idea about, and it’s certainly changed my sort of perspective on snakes and reptiles.

And I’m sure a lot of people listening, it feels the same, but there’s a part of the show where we asked the same five questions to each guest each week. Oh, great. Gone. With the first being on the sort of trips into the jungle, what Steve, one gadget that you always take with you, it’s going to sound ridiculous, but my diary that’s a good one.

I. Being a storyteller, wanting to be a storyteller. I always feel like you’re, you you’re hit by the problem of relativity when you’re in somewhere amazing for more than a week, everything becomes normal. And the important pieces of the story to pick out and to reflect on and remember will blend into, oh, well, this can’t be interesting because we have lunch every day.

So surely no one’s going to want to care about [00:52:00] that. And you come home and tell someone what you’ve been doing and the bottom half of their jaw falls off. And so for me, I think I’m writing in my diary every single day, when I’m there reflecting on the things that I’ve done in a fairly fact based where you haven’t got to put on your opinion, just we did this and this and this.

When you get home, you’re thinking, wow, actually we really did do an incredible job, but we face some real novel challenges. And for me, I think I mentioned earlier kind of with my mental health side of the things, I find myself in a place in the jungle where I wanted my whole life to get there. I want to, I mean, I had posters of green Anaconda for Lance Bushmaster on my wall as a child.

And then when I am there, I missing. What’s that about? That’s that whole thing is totally ridiculous for me. I’m in thinking half of me is thinking, pull your socks up, gave yourself. It’s just a little bit tough. It’s a bit hungry, a bit tired. And on the other hand, I’m thinking, well, this is actually a fantastic thing to reflect on.

And I remember writing about that and thinking about why and and how and how that was impacting my behavior on things. I think actually [00:53:00] for me, a diary kind of keeps my head in check. And for me, you know, in the jungle, if you keep your head in check and you can find solutions to the other things.

Amazing. What about your favorite adventure or travel book or a favorite adventure travel book? I actually hate reading which is, I know ridiculous given that I’m at university and reading is a big part of what I do. But I don’t know. It also a bit kind of obvious in terms of beating down the drum, but one of the first books I read.

Front to back in about two days without stopping. I think it was Levinson woods. First book about walking the Nile. And you want the trip’s ultimately not successful in terms of a physical walk on the NAR because of the wars in the South Sudan. The way in which he spoke about the, the formulation of the project which I thought was interesting from a management perspective, but also.

The doing and the hardship and the resilience [00:54:00] blended in with the realities and the people along with which you meet. And it’s the people that I find incredible. And I find it really inspiring and I’ve taken a lot of those lessons into the things that I try and document, because I’ll always go somewhere and look for the snakes or go somewhere.

You look to hit a goal, but I always come home and talk about the people which is always surprising for me. And I think probably surprising for my friends and having that recent. And I think that will, the notebook is now bestseller and widely read. I mean, what a fantastic baseline to go from. If you’re interested in following a career in the space to learn from someone like Eleven’s, then this must be an amazing, it’s an amazing experience.

And kind of what makes them book well, did he sort of, I say about the people in, when you go to these countries, Well, I think he has this long relationship with with a guide that he has there. And I think most of us might think about to expedition is doing it [00:55:00] without a guide or how could you call it real expedition if you’re doing it with a guy who has all the answers to local problems.

And I think you break that down really well. And I, I forgotten chapter name now. Maybe the company in a second, but they’re going through the countries and really, you know, war torn areas. I mean, historically, so like Rwanda now having an amazing recovery and you know, all these places and yes, guidance got all the solutions for, you know, how to navigate cultural, liquid level cultural scenarios.

How to maybe find a Bush food. Obviously extra strength is always valuable on expedition trip, but then you also see Levinson’s value coming through to the guide and, and together it’s this cross cross-functional skillset. And there’s this amazing interaction where I think the guide meant to leave levels and at a certain point, and he was meant to go for a stretch by himself [00:56:00] or find a new diet.

I forget now. But, but they carried on going together and I think that’s the power of an expedition as well. And, you know, two people form this amazing bond through hardships and resilience. I think I thought that was a really touching story. Nice. Why are adventures important to you? I think adventures are important to everyone.

I guess that the crux of that depends on your definition of what an adventure is. For me an adventure is testing something new. Essentially in whatever way that could be. And for me in going on, or it was a new environment it was new snake species. It was a new challenges in terms of jungle survival.

And they’re important for me because, well, the short answer is they never meet to grow. I believe in a growth mindset. I think that we roll with the punches valuably [00:57:00] and the venture forces you to take some punches but equally forces you to roll with them. Because if you don’t roll with them and you get stung with a strong punch to the face, you can’t afford to sit down for too long.

So I think it healthfully puts you in a position of growth within a scope of excitement. And I think that’s, that’s how we should face challenges with optimism. Good planning and yeah. Very nice. Then he could have said to set it any Besa. What about your, one of my best friends from school, a guy called Monte scale.

So he’s recently finished runner-up and the British amateur golf. And you know, he’s the most amazing sportsman. I’m so lucky to have him as one of my best mates. And he had a lot of publicity around his golf because, you know, unfortunately lost the amateur at the end, beaten by great golfer and led shepherd.

But giving up a sizable advantage [00:58:00] now, most people will take that really heavily and it will impact them through their life. Maybe at least in the short term, Muncy with the strength of his character, uses it as a motivation. And he sent me this quote the other day, which things are Teddy Roosevelt.

The man, man, I won’t like the whole thing, cause I can’t remember it. And B it’s about a paragraph long. Maybe you can Google it. And the crux of the quote is you know, be the person in the room. Deb boldly. And when things go wrong, at least you, you have gone somewhere where you want to go. And it’s better to be that person, maybe someone sitting on the outside criticizing who won’t know what it feels to really be in that arena.

And I, and I think that that puts a lot of things that I get concerned about Interscope in terms of, you know, what does failure look like? What are people’s judgments or assessments, or he won’t get there, or he’s not this or that? I think as long as I’m in my [00:59:00] Rina then I’m playing the game that I want to play.

Good things will, will come out. From that, I think it’s important that we play get off the sidelines and to get involved. So I think what a great quote to inspire engagement, really good. One people listening are always keen to travel and go on these grand adventures. What’s the one thing you would recommend to people wanting to get stuff.

There are a number of things. I mean, you could approach that question a thousand different ways. But I think to, to kind of hit it on the head, really nail down your purpose. I think for, for most things, if, if you have a really strong, why. And that’s really clear for you, whatever that is, where it’s the perfect beach holiday, or you want to find the world’s biggest, you know, constrictor or a thousand different other objectives.

You know, you really know your why then you put it with a better idea of how you want to get there and what you want from it, who you want to work with, how much money you might need to raise, which is an important thing not to [01:00:00] overlook. I think. It might also just have the gumption to give it a go. I mean, I can’t tell you all of the times that on this trip, like I’ve completely failed at something and we didn’t get a chance it’s been too quick and too much fun, but you have to maybe it’s fine.

Send some money up front to people and take a big leap of. In human behavior in an era of what, where you haven’t got any phone signal you, you might have to compromise your security or safety criteria to kind of get somewhere where you really want to go. But a lot of the time all of these questions in whatever way they manifest themselves, leaves you in a position where you have to make a decision and decisions are often really difficult.

Even in, you know, the UK we’re in the worst case, no, you can always call a friend and get some help, but especially in the middle of nowhere is, is massive. And if you have your purpose, if you have your why for me, that often acts as a really good guiding principle for making [01:01:00] my decisions and whether that’s a no often more important than a yes.

My, my, why will get me there. So really think about that. Why challenge? I think your staff to make that as specific as possible, but you know, maybe more directive than prescriptive. And then. There’ll be other challenges of course, but, but you know, that should see you through, I think I’m going through those hurdles.

Amazing. Finally, what are you doing now and how can people follow you in your future expeditions or adventures? Well, I’m currently studying for my master’s at university of extra down, down in Cornwall, the Penrhyn campus, which is an amazing place to study. And next year I’m currently going out for funding for a three month expedition to Sri Lanka.

I think talking about snake bite prevention and managing that human snake conflict there’s a lot of talk about antivenom. [01:02:00] There’s a lot of talk about how we would save someone after a bite. There’s surprisingly little conversation about how you can prevent them in the first place where preventatives are actually really effective and quite cheap.

Equally like with any kind of product design, going back to my consultancy day, you would never design, I don’t think a successful product by telling the consumer what they want. You would always really go and listen from them. Understand the specific problems. I think they’re often different to what the maker or the solutionize or would assume.

So I’m trying to shine through and I’ll document all of this on my Instagram page about going to these rural communities in Sri Lanka interviewing the people who are facing this deadly interaction on a day by day basis and really see where their problems sets. Do they happen at work?

Are there a specific time of day? Is there a specific kind of problem? I mean, are they afraid? Are they not afraid? [01:03:00] What are the solutions that they’ve tried to put in place before? And haven’t worked, for example, people would have say, oh, I can’t just wear boots. And I thought it was a fair assumption and like I bought her boots about five years ago and took them all that.

And people didn’t want to wear them because they would say, well, if I wear these, I’ll get blisters every single day of my life. And if I don’t, then I might get a snake bite once in a blue moon. So just speak to the power of actually understanding what the user wants. So you save on energy, save on wasted capital, save on you know, a whole load of inefficiencies and actually deliver real solutions.

So you can follow me on my Instagram page. And hopefully there’ll be some more conversations coming up soon. I’m also giving a talk for the world, extreme medicine site in a few weeks time. And I’ll put the link for that in my Instagram page as well. I mean, well, we’ll put the, put the link in the description below for people listening.

And Harrison has been such a pleasure listening to your stories and I can’t thank you enough [01:04:00] for coming on today. No problems. Thanks so much, John. No worries. Well, have a great day and we’ll see you soon. Sounds good. Well, that is it for today. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you got something out of it.

If you did hit that like button and subscribe, if you haven’t already and die, we’ll see you in the next video.

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